Is overheating an issue?

houseofdiesel

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I think your entire theory is valid and I agree...but I'm not gonna go much further to chase heat reduction.

My approach has been...
1.) Use the Tazer with the ability to operate the fans manually
2.) Make the hood vents functional (see my photos in this post)
3.) When all else fails, back off the throttle when things start to creep up

The heat issue "is what it is"...I'm fully aware of it and just deal with it.

Another approach would be to pull the engine and adapt in another little early diesel all hot-rodded with crazy engine controls, wazoo turbo's and massive injectors...LOL Can you imagine??

Just dream'n...HEY, IT COULD HAPPEN!!! But if I blow this thing up, it would be cheaper than replacing this Italian job...

Heat is the enemy. As long as, while we are operating the vehicles and temps are this high parts are expanding and creating more friction, increasing wear, failure, and shortening parts life cycles. No thanks I'll hope and try to expedite someone making a part that keeps our mills crazy cool like they should be. My oversized cooler I piggybacked on a Bulletproof remote oil cooling system was far cheaper than a motor swap to a 12V.

Here are how low I got my oil temps with my oversized cooler.
Normal Operation
Under load @ 1/2 loaded
Under load fully loaded in hot climate

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Plongson

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I'm gonna agree with you as well but "Different strikes for different folks" applies here. This temp issue is a frigg'n rabbit hole and how long one decides to chase it is a personal choice.

For one, I REALLY hope you find a valid and sustainable resolution...not just for you but for ALL us ED users/owners. The manufactures are only concerned with limited longevity as opposed to owners looking for the units to last essentially forever. I usually keep cars about 10 to 15 years but my sand is running low, and so is any interest in any more modification to this motor to keep it cool.

Mine is as good as it's gonna get. Please keep us updated on your project!
 
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NCJL

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I'm gonna agree with you as well but "Different strikes for different folks" applies here. This temp issue is a frigg'n rabbit hole and how long one decides to chase it is a personal choice.

For one, I REALLY hope you find a valid and sustainable resolution...not just for you but for ALL us ED users/owners. The manufactures are only concerned with limited longevity as opposed to owners looking for the units to last essentially for ever. I usually keep cars about 10 to 15 years but my sand is running low, and so is any interest in any more modification to this motor to keep it cool.

Mine is as good as it's gonna get. Please keep us updated on your project!
Very well said. If I may continue. All modern engines use heat. If you want pre 2000’s temps in your modern diesel you should first drive it like a pre 2000’s diesel and pretend the redline is about 2000 RPM. Doing this would definitely keep the heat down. This would most likely add many thousands of miles and years to the longevity of the engine.
 

houseofdiesel

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Very well said. If I may continue. All modern engines use heat. If you want pre 2000’s temps in your modern diesel you should first drive it like a pre 2000’s diesel and pretend the redline is about 2000 RPM. Doing this would definitely keep the heat down. This would most likely add many thousands of miles and years to the longevity of the engine.
The ED yes is a Euro Spec high rev motor. That doesn't mean that we can't get the thermal temps back to lower safer specs. Planned Obsolescence has been a staple of European design for a lot longer than here. Not sure why we'd want or except that mentality from our manufacturers.

1st Gen common rail and Turbo diesels were only created in '89 for Cummins, '94.5 for the Powerstroke, and '01 for the Duramax. Heat was the enemy of my '04 V10 TDI, but that wasn't expected to haul and was pre emissions. Either way those are the mills we were competing with in the 2000's and the Cummins is still one of the premier choices even today. But by the end of the 2000's we were pushing common rail American diesels to 4000 Rpm or more on the performance aftermarket side.

Specifically to these new diesels the EcoDiesel and the LM2 by GM their torque curves drop off at 3000 Rpm so you don't want to be past that on a grade or incline anyways. The horsepower curves are more passenger or sports car like and that is where the driving characteristics are a blast driving unladen. Operating these diesels in that band while loaded is probably why we are having heat problems. On flat ground the majority of the resistance is at take off and getting up to speed so after 3000 Rpm losing torque is not an issue. But when loaded and on a grade that load and resistance is constant. On a grade like the Grape Vine that load needs to be maintained for over 30 minutes straight. I read a paper when I was young about how much energy that requires and it really set my mind as to why diesels will always be our #1 resource for hauling and the physics involved. Wish I had kept that. And hope that explains. For 80% of EcoDiesel owners that don't haul or do overlanding they will never even probably run into overheating issues.

Also I wish more people realized that NOx regulations for diesel were a handicap of their efficiency not a necessity. As this chart shows unregulated diesels only produced roughly 16% more NOx than regulated gas vehicles in 2001 when these statistics were formulated. The regulations called for them to cut NOx to 4 g/bhp·hr in 1994, 2.0 g/bhp·hr 2004, 0.050 g/bhp·hr from 2024 and to 0.02 g/bhp·hr from 2027. That is a 100% cut, on top of a 50% cut, on top of a 50% cut. By 2004 standards diesels were already producing less NOx than the cars that were being built in the 1990's. By the 1990's we had already cut auto emissions as a whole by 99%. So all the regulations and mandates are increasing the costs of our vehicles and shortening their life cycle to cut a fraction of 1%.

NOx CO2  2001.png
 

gijohn56

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I have had my 2020 JLURD for about a year now and have 40k miles on it. I have towed a 3500lb trailer to Moab and back and seen the coolant temp at 244 degrees where the engine started to detune to save itself. I have also seen going up a 8% grade with a/c blasting fully doing 80MPH (no trailer) and see the temp go to 244 and once again detune. I cut my vents and removed the liner under the hood and it helped. I plan on getting a spare pair of the vents with just the small hole for winter and replacing the liner so that the water vents out the side of the hood.

My jeep still runs hot but not as hot. I drive from an altitude of 4500ft up to 6800ft and back on a daily basis (hence the 40k in one year).

If you look on youtube there is video where they also cut the side vents out but they are a pain to get to! Also I run 37" tires with the stock 3.73 gears.
 

NCJL

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The ED yes is a Euro Spec high rev motor. That doesn't mean that we can't get the thermal temps back to lower safer specs. Planned Obsolescence has been a staple of European design for a lot longer than here. Not sure why we'd want or except that mentality from our manufacturers.

1st Gen common rail and Turbo diesels were only created in '89 for Cummins, '94.5 for the Powerstroke, and '01 for the Duramax. Heat was the enemy of my '04 V10 TDI, but that wasn't expected to haul and was pre emissions. Either way those are the mills we were competing with in the 2000's and the Cummins is still one of the premier choices even today. But by the end of the 2000's we were pushing common rail American diesels to 4000 Rpm or more on the performance aftermarket side.

Specifically to these new diesels the EcoDiesel and the LM2 by GM their torque curves drop off at 3000 Rpm so you don't want to be past that on a grade or incline anyways. The horsepower curves are more passenger or sports car like and that is where the driving characteristics are a blast driving unladen. Operating these diesels in that band while loaded is probably why we are having heat problems. On flat ground the majority of the resistance is at take off and getting up to speed so after 3000 Rpm losing torque is not an issue. But when loaded and on a grade that load and resistance is constant. On a grade like the Grape Vine that load needs to be maintained for over 30 minutes straight. I read a paper when I was young about how much energy that requires and it really set my mind as to why diesels will always be our #1 resource for hauling and the physics involved. Wish I had kept that. And hope that explains. For 80% of EcoDiesel owners that don't haul or do overlanding they will never even probably run into overheating issues.

Also I wish more people realized that NOx regulations for diesel were a handicap of their efficiency not a necessity. As this chart shows unregulated diesels only produced roughly 16% more NOx than regulated gas vehicles in 2001 when these statistics were formulated. The regulations called for them to cut NOx to 4 g/bhp·hr in 1994, 2.0 g/bhp·hr 2004, 0.050 g/bhp·hr from 2024 and to 0.02 g/bhp·hr from 2027. That is a 100% cut, on top of a 50% cut, on top of a 50% cut. By 2004 standards diesels were already producing less NOx than the cars that were being built in the 1990's. By the 1990's we had already cut auto emissions as a whole by 99%. So all the regulations and mandates are increasing the costs of our vehicles and shortening their life cycle to cut a fraction of 1%.

NOx CO2  2001.png
I can’t disagree with any of your points. I’m not a mechanic and have not had a major problem with any of my diesel powered vehicles.
I’m just saying what others have said. Not worth the trip down the rabbit hole.
I have an 8 year 80k mile manufacturer warranty on all my emissions parts. Purchased in California. I can very easily extend that too 125k mile 10year warranty bumper to bumper type warranty. About $2k from Mopar.

The coolant is good to the hi 200’s and the synthetic oils are good beyond 300 degrees.

I can also change the oil every 5k instead of 10k.

I’ve towed the grapevine with 112 ambient temps and never overheated or gotten anywhere close to the temps that would cause coolant or oil degradation. I’ve towed the grapevine at night and didn’t even see a rise in temps more than 10 degrees.
When I was a kid. The parents would shut off the AC when going up a grade. I think they still have signs saying to do this. I don’t need to do that. My EcoDiesel is better than what I grew up with.

Spending money on extended warranty, extra oil changes and lower RPM’s is my choice.

Fully Electric Semi’s are getting close to reality. Diesel engines and all other fossil fueled vehicles are on the downside. My JLURD only needs to get me to the fully electric equivalent. Thinking about 10 years. Maybe I’m dreaming.

I think you make valid points. I just don’t think they apply to today’s world. You or me can’t change that. I’m not a tree hugger but I do wish it would rain more in California. Wheeling thru the trees with running creeks and streams is nice.
 

AZ-Chris

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At my most recent Jeep Wave complimentary oil change, I spoke with the service manager about the oil temperatures I've seen and expressed my concerns about towing up the notorious Arizona highway grades. His initial thoughts were that 250 F isn't necessarily bad, but 270 F would be pushing the engine toward delimiting itself. He also told me that an auxiliary oil cooler, while not available through Mopar, wouldn't necessarily void my warranty if installed; rather it would depend upon what any future warranty claim was made and if the added cooler contributed to the failure. Basically, he thought an auxiliary cooler sounded like a reasonable precaution to prevent engine trouble while towing in extreme conditions.

My initial phone conversation with the General Manager at Bullet Proof Diesel went along the lines that they are willing to investigate engineering a solution to keep the Wrangler EcoDiesel engine from delimiting itself from excessive heat. They already offer an EGR cooling system and beat FCA to the market with it, so they already have experience working on the EcoDiesel.
 

NCJL

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I think conveniently oils start degrading in the mid 200’s. Synthetic oils are stable into the 300’s. Thinking the Mopar oil is conveniently. The dealer probably has some good advice.

I have not seen oil temps higher than the 250’s.

If you did add the non Mopar items to help cool the engine temps. Be sure you break down near or have your jeep towed to a dealer that won’t make a big deal out of the adds. Even if the added items didn’t have a thing to do with the breakdown a bad dealer could make your repair problematic.

I looked at Bulletproof website. The EGR and oil cooler could cost over $3K once figured out, plus installation. The figuring out part could add more cost to the lucky jeep owner that offers his jeep as a test vehicle.

I’m already going down the rabbit hole with my trailer. Can’t do it twice.
 

NCJL

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I was curious so I did some oil research today. I’m not a mechanic or a petroleum engineer.

I ended up concentrating on Amsoil and Red Line brands. They both offered easily accessed specifications for there product. They both listed the specific oil recommended to meet the MS12991 oil spec for the 3rd Gen EcoDiesel with ASTM listed specs.

I found lots of companies that said there oil meet the MS 12991 spec or was approved. However, I couldn’t find any of the ASTM specs on their website, doesn’t mean they didn’t have it, I just couldn’t find it.

ASTM is American Society for Testing and Materials. Has many oil testing standards.
HTHS is High Temperature High Shear at 300 degrees.
NOACK is Volatility Test testing at 500 degrees for 60 minutes.

Seems like the above approved oils are all stable to 300 degrees. The oil viscosity is not detrimentally affected by sustained heat up to 300 degrees. Also good to the vehicle manufacturer recommended change intervals.
 

DEZELJP

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Here’s the problem! Both the new eco diesels 2020 JLURD and the 2021 JT Diesel are both de rating at low outside temps. They both can’t even hold the speed limit on roads in Idaho or in Utah. Neither vehicle is towing. Neither vehicle even has a tent or camping gear. They only have luggage for 3 to 4 and a cooler and food. Check the Gladiator forum and see all the disappointed persons trying to tow with there eco diesel. This not even including those people that are all shaking their heads because they thought they would be able to tow with their diesel and are not internet savvy or followers. It’s a problem Jeep needs to fix. I change my oil every 5000 needed or not. I don’t care if the oil will take the heat. I just want to drive on the road at the posted speed limit that the government set for me. I’m not expecting that out of the CJ. Come on, I’m driving in the year 2021
 

Plongson

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Huh.... those aren't my findings or experience with my ED. I'm completely satisfied...and pull WAY over the limit.
 

AZ-Chris

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Engine oil, in addition to serving as a lubricant, serves to cool components. While the oil can stand up to 270 F temperatures for prolonged periods of time, other components can not. FCA engineers have sensors and software that delimit the engine to protect itself from imminent self-destruction. I am hopeful that a "reasonable" solution can be found that prevents the oil temperatures from climbing toward the limits in extreme conditions (under a towing load or not).

There's been at least one forum member from Arizona that has also experienced engine delimiting (cant remember if he was towing or not) when driving on the local, steep-grade highways. I have to wonder if these folks have auxiliary lights on top of the front bumper, or some other grill obstruction that blocks air flow through the radiator. High ambient temperature, elevation, speed, road grade, and load are all significant factors that contribute to engine temperature . . . any one or a combination of the above can lead to a bad day.
 

NCJL

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Here’s the problem! Both the new eco diesels 2020 JLURD and the 2021 JT Diesel are both de rating at low outside temps. They both can’t even hold the speed limit on roads in Idaho or in Utah. Neither vehicle is towing. Neither vehicle even has a tent or camping gear. They only have luggage for 3 to 4 and a cooler and food. Check the Gladiator forum and see all the disappointed persons trying to tow with there eco diesel. This not even including those people that are all shaking their heads because they thought they would be able to tow with their diesel and are not internet savvy or followers. It’s a problem Jeep needs to fix. I change my oil every 5000 needed or not. I don’t care if the oil will take the heat. I just want to drive on the road at the posted speed limit that the government set for me. I’m not expecting that out of the CJ. Come on, I’m driving in the year 2021
Agree that’s not right!
 

Gorilla57

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Engine oil, in addition to serving as a lubricant, serves to cool components. While the oil can stand up to 270 F temperatures for prolonged periods of time, other components can not. FCA engineers have sensors and software that delimit the engine to protect itself from imminent self-destruction. I am hopeful that a "reasonable" solution can be found that prevents the oil temperatures from climbing toward the limits in extreme conditions (under a towing load or not).

There's been at least one forum member from Arizona that has also experienced engine delimiting (cant remember if he was towing or not) when driving on the local, steep-grade highways. I have to wonder if these folks have auxiliary lights on top of the front bumper, or some other grill obstruction that blocks air flow through the radiator. High ambient temperature, elevation, speed, road grade, and load are all significant factors that contribute to engine temperature . . . any one or a combination of the above can lead to a bad day.
You keep saying "delimit", do you mean derate?
 

AZ-Chris

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