Is it possible to just flip the soft top back and drive?

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Firemadz

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Here we go! Political debate season has begun again, and out comes Ronnie boy the politician wannabe lawyer spewing his fake gospel. Thought if we ignored him, he’d just go away, but unfortunately, he keeps coming back. Just ignore his bullshit.
 

Firemadz

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"that settled the issue" !!!!! :LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:

Yeah, tongue-in-cheek but, it kinda did settle things as anyone that followed that likely is now so repulsed by the question and are determined to do whatever the heck they want with their windows and don't care what anyone else thinks. I know that's where I'm at.

I got the same don't-take-the-windows-out thing with my Jeep, I believe it came out of the soft-top windows bag package but don't know for sure. I was an early 2019 order so I don't think it is something they put out to correct the manual in "new" Jeeps. But its out there and definitely says to skip taking the windows out (unseen steps 1 & 2).
DONT RemoveIMG_1743.JPG


And last thing I think is that even though JeepCares said "follow the manual" I think they probably tell that to all the guys, meaning I doubt they went off and found some soft-top engineer and got their take on the issue and came back to tell us, yup, the manual has it right. I bet if anybody asks how to do anything they automatically say to refer to the manual, for Rahneld's reasons he's detailed.

I only posted the manual stuff because the OP mentioned the manual, and I thought he'd want to see what it said. So now he can make up his own mind with a little more information.

But once again, if they didn’t want you to drive with them out, it would be boxed and bold type. It’s just a poorly written manual. Probably by the same non English-speaking morons that write product descriptions for Amazon.
 

Rahneld

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@Firemadz : Where's the political debate?

Lawyers with all sorts of political affiliations would agree, one and the same, that litigation against FCA for soft windows damaged by, or that that damage other vehicles/property/people should they be dislodged as a result of placing your soft top in Sunrider mode would be fruitless.

I'm not, for the umpteenth time, saying this scenario likely, just who pays the bill from damages resulting.

You're lost in what's relevant @Firemadz. Jeep newbies, if your making decisions on what this guy says your apt to run into more problems than if you ignore him.

Assuming the owner's manual poorly written or not by your opinion, or even others, litigation would far and away be likely decided based on what's in it, based on the 3 pronged test of case law discussed above. Please read it.

If it makes you feel better, I agree that parts of the manual are poorly written if not downright deceptive--although some of this results because that manual's written for all Wrangler platforms: maybe FCA should split out the manual; one for each model.

Jumpstarting the 3.6L is a classic example I bring up from time to time. The manual's wording seems to imply a waiting period for cranking based upon building charge in the donor battery. It's misleading at best, wrong at worst, and yet, don't follow their procedure and develop problems that can be traced back to your actions, and you will be on the hook for damages.

It flies in the face of logic that in the monster post on this subject matter from a few weeks ago, where @JeepCares expressly tells you to go by the manual, you're still quoting me as wrong. https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/sunrider-position-pointless.30957/page-9#post-716296

I haven't figured out where you lie inside the triangle whose 3 points are ignorance, stupidity and trolling.

Assuming it's stupidity, let me paint you a picture. In this video, by analogy, I am the quartermaster, merely quoting fact, and you're Austin Powers.


Click that ignore button. It's for two situations: one is where you're being harassed--and you're not--you're just getting fact--and second when ego won't let you handle being wrong in assuming FCA has multiple stances on Sunrider operation.

Let's see if I've got this correct. I'm wrong because...wait for it...FCA enjoys paying money out in litigation claims. By your way of thinking, damages to or caused by soft windows, in or out, during Sunrider position--however unlikely--is something FCA will cover, and people can make informed decisions based on this fiction.
 

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This Sunrider position and soft windows in or out topic is like the twilight zone. My points are in lock step with what FCA themselves has come on to the board and said, which is that consistent with the owner's manual, soft window removal is indicated when taking the top into Sunrider position.

Do so, don't do so, I think the risk is minimal, but that's besides the point.

And yet, others are telling me that I can't drop something when I'm wrong. Fascinating.

To call me wrong is to call FCA wrong. Are dissenters saying they have better handle on what FCA expects than that FCA has expressly communicated here and in the owner's manual: which legally supersedes all other operational guidance, especially, not just when it conflicts with the manual and disclaimers referring you to the owner's manual exists on such supplemental materials but not in the owner's manual? Are dissenters saying that FCA is going to come out and say, "you know what everyone, we got it wrong, leave the soft windows in," so they can pay out warranty and litigation claims should the windows ever get damaged or damage other things respectively when the soft top's in Sunrider position? Really, so FCA executives are chartered to reduce stock holder wealth paying lawyers and litigation claims that can be avoided?

We can argue for days as to what FCA intended with that placard that says leaving the soft windows in is fine if not proper. But smart people make decisions on how things will play out under the law if the fit hits the shan, and the likelihood of that fit hitting the shan: which I have always conceded is IMHO minimal here, particularly at off parkway/highway speeds. The point, the essence here is that novices be armed with accurate information as to likelihood of risk and financial consequence to themselves, and make the decision right for them. That should be what a forum is about, at least I think--and I know a lot of you agree--on a non-opinion based topic like this.

The picture of the JL on closed roads with the top open...? The rig was parked in nice weather. Nobody or thing was around. On closed courses you don't need a driver's license, insurance, or even a street legal rig. Heck, go read your policy, you may find off road travel not covered.

And those claiming the picture fraudulent inducement...it isn't. Go take your rig off road, park it, and open the top for some air without removing the soft windows. No force of wind opposite to the traveling direction of a moving rig will knock those windows out in such a scenario.
 

Garweft

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I really want to know if I have to take out the back and side windows in order to drive around with the windows rolled down.

You get just as much wind entering the cab with the windows down as you do in sunrider, if not more.
 

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I really want to know if I have to take out the back and side windows in order to drive around with the windows rolled down.

You get just as much wind entering the cab with the windows down as you do in sunrider, if not more.
I've done that at 80mph for hours on end with no issue.
 

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I don't know what the heck is going on here, but you'd probably be fine. That being said, from experience, if you're doing Sunrider and windows down and doing over 60mph, that's gonna be a heck of a lot of air flowing into the jeep and pushing outward against those rear windows. Doesn't take much imagination to see those plastic tucks suddenly becoming not tucked lol, but they'd still be in the channel sliders even if the tucks came undone and you'd probably have enough warning to pull over before a window actually flew completely off.

I'd do it just cruising around town no problem, but if I'm getting on a highway, nope. Just my gut feeling. Besides, I usually just put the whole top down.
 

Kraty1

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I don't know what the heck is going on here, but you'd probably be fine. That being said, from experience, if you're doing Sunrider and windows down and doing over 60mph, that's gonna be a heck of a lot of air flowing into the jeep and pushing outward against those rear windows. Doesn't take much imagination to see those plastic tucks suddenly becoming not tucked lol, but they'd still be in the channel sliders even if the tucks came undone and you'd probably have enough warning to pull over before a window actually flew completely off.

I'd do it just cruising around town no problem, but if I'm getting on a highway, nope. Just my gut feeling. Besides, I usually just put the whole top down.
The windows actually bend inward not out in sunrider mode, they bend outward with the windows up and top on actually. If you look in your rear view mirrors the soft top windows look the same with the door windows down as they do with the sunrider top open.
 

rallydefault

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Yes, I know they bend inward - I've seen people riding around with Sunrider and the windows in. The roof when it's folded back like that kind of crunches the windows, bending them inward. I'm just saying that there will also be an extraordinary amount of wind coming through roof/windows and pushing outward against them when you're driving that way at higher speeds.

Like I said, around town, state roads, etc. I probably wouldn't think twice about it if I just wanted some quick air. But no way would I do it on a major highway at any real speed. Would most likely be fine, but dang it would be a silly way/waste of money to lose one of your windows rather than just putting the whole top down. I even get a little nervous with the door windows down and the rear windows in sometimes at high speeds.
 

YerMaun

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I haven't read up all the apparently extensive threads on this, just can report my own experience. I drive around pretty much all day every day with windows in and sunrider flipped back. Round town, freeways, everywhere. Never had even the slightest issue.
From a physics pov, I don't see how the airflow will cause pressure against the inside of the rear plastic windows - it's flowing up/over/around the car (sit in the back seat in sunrider, you do not feel any 'pressure' pushing back on you - so why would the windows?). I can see how it might be a slightly bigger concern if you also have the side windows down - but I wouldn't do that at much speed anyway, too much buffeting.

YMMV of course, it's just my own experience as I said.
I love the flexibility of the soft top!
 

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Sometimes I don’t feel like taking all the soft top windows out so is it ok to just flip the first part of the top back and drive? Or will this ruin it?
I drive with it flipped back more than with it up. I have put it all the way down about 3 times now. the back windows can be a challenge if they are new like mine are, but i've not had any issues.
 

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This Sunrider position and soft windows in or out topic is like the twilight zone. My points are in lock step with what FCA themselves has come on to the board and said, which is that consistent with the owner's manual, soft window removal is indicated when taking the top into Sunrider position.

Do so, don't do so, I think the risk is minimal, but that's besides the point.

And yet, others are telling me that I can't drop something when I'm wrong. Fascinating.

To call me wrong is to call FCA wrong. Are dissenters saying they have better handle on what FCA expects than that FCA has expressly communicated here and in the owner's manual: which legally supersedes all other operational guidance, especially, not just when it conflicts with the manual and disclaimers referring you to the owner's manual exists on such supplemental materials but not in the owner's manual? Are dissenters saying that FCA is going to come out and say, "you know what everyone, we got it wrong, leave the soft windows in," so they can pay out warranty and litigation claims should the windows ever get damaged or damage other things respectively when the soft top's in Sunrider position? Really, so FCA executives are chartered to reduce stock holder wealth paying lawyers and litigation claims that can be avoided?

We can argue for days as to what FCA intended with that placard that says leaving the soft windows in is fine if not proper. But smart people make decisions on how things will play out under the law if the fit hits the shan, and the likelihood of that fit hitting the shan: which I have always conceded is IMHO minimal here, particularly at off parkway/highway speeds. The point, the essence here is that novices be armed with accurate information as to likelihood of risk and financial consequence to themselves, and make the decision right for them. That should be what a forum is about, at least I think--and I know a lot of you agree--on a non-opinion based topic like this.

The picture of the JL on closed roads with the top open...? The rig was parked in nice weather. Nobody or thing was around. On closed courses you don't need a driver's license, insurance, or even a street legal rig. Heck, go read your policy, you may find off road travel not covered.

And those claiming the picture fraudulent inducement...it isn't. Go take your rig off road, park it, and open the top for some air without removing the soft windows. No force of wind opposite to the traveling direction of a moving rig will knock those windows out in such a scenario.
Probably won't matter to you...but perhaps Jeep should also have their dealers stop telling people it is OK to drive with the windows in and the top flipped back. If dealerships are posting videos telling people this is OK, I would say it is fine. I have driven with this configuration for over a year with no issues.

Best Top also apparently thinks the Sunrider position is just the top flipped back and the windows in...see 2:08 of the this video...
 

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Probably won't matter to you...but perhaps Jeep should also have their dealers stop telling people it is OK to drive with the windows in and the top flipped back. If dealerships are posting videos telling people this is OK, I would say it is fine. I have driven with this configuration for over a year with no issues.

Best Top also apparently thinks the Sunrider position is just the top flipped back and the windows in...see 2:08 of the this video...
You're right it will not matter to him. But we will be treated to a 4000 word essay on how the dealers are wrong.

I have met plenty of people that like to hear themselves talk but this is the first that likes to hear the clickity-clack of their keyboard.
 
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