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Intro post/ JL Forced Induction Questions

Ereanor

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Hi All,

My name is Jon, and I have decided that it is time to retire my current DD to weekend driver/ racecar. I Want something that is quieter and more comfortable then the car I drive now. It also has to be fun and something that I enjoy. This has led me to the Wrangler. I am on the fence between the JL and the JK Rubicon.

The only reason I am undecided is because of the compression ratio and the lack of good tuners for it for forced induction (I only started searching for the last month, so please forgive my ignorance). I understand that this is not a performance vehicle, so there will not be the reputation of top tuners for sports cars with overwhelmingly great followers. I do not want sports car like performance, I just want something that will get out of it's own way when needed. I plan on a SC due to simplicity on adding to a NA vehicle, but I also like the variables a turbo comes with.

With saying this, I understand the JL's are popping more than the JK's. And while it is technically a new platform with the changes, this can be expected. I am still leaning for the JL, but why hasn't the following being discussed;

E85. Doesnt have to be straight, just has to have a few gallon mix to deter knock (tuning required). A small mix 25%-50% of E85 mixed with premium doesn't usually cause problems with vehicles that are not set up to support flex-fuel. After a E50, you also start to see diminishing gains.

I have seen videos of the Prodigy Turbos on Kevin's rig. He was talking about hearing knock. When this happens, it is usually an event that will cause damage if it is audible. Maybe not at the time, but after enough detonation, it will.
Why is there no tuning solution that will monitor how many degrees of timing the ECU is retarding due to the knock sensor detecting pre-detonation? And allowing the driver to observe and adjust until the event is sorted out?

If one has access to E85 to mix with premium, are there tuning solutions that can accommodate multiple maps? E85 mix for good performance, and another map that pulls timing when you only have access to 93 etc.?

Or do I have all of this wrong, and no one has full access to the ECU yet?

Thank you all in advance, and I apologize for my lack of knowledge on this platform.
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FlyByU

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Kevins tune from prodigy had the knock sensors desensitized, I know this as thats how the tune is provided by Prodigy. I have a custom tune done by a very experienced FCA tuner and the problems Kevin experienced are all solved. The factory knock sensors will retard timing when knock is detected, it will help. Granted I am on 93 octane, I am not sure how well it would perform on 91 octane.

As far as the e85 mix, I cant speak to that but I do know that using e85 requires significant volume increase and the injectors that come with the prodigy kit do not support that, it would require an upgraded fuel system. Not sure Ive seen e85 used as a octane booster mixed with 93, Ive seen meth used in this manner. Ideally running e85 as your fuel would be a help just not sure how the mixing works.

HP Tuners will allow you to monitor knock via data logging and Kevin did that, its not something you should constantly be required to do. Your tune should be dialed in for the fuel being used and the knock sensors would be a backup safety net as intended.

You could have a separate tune for 91, 93, e85 etc... it would require you to flash the tune you want, wont adjust on its own.

I have almost 10,000 miles on my prodigy setup running 93 octane. It drives well but it required my tuner to put in significant effort and time to get the tune correct. That is the biggest hurdle, finding a tuner willing to put in the time, its not a point and shoot platform or scenario.
 
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oceanblue2019

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Hi All,

My name is Jon, and I have decided that it is time to retire my current DD to weekend driver/ racecar. I Want something that is quieter and more comfortable then the car I drive now. It also has to be fun and something that I enjoy. This has led me to the Wrangler. I am on the fence between the JL and the JK Rubicon.

The only reason I am undecided is because of the compression ratio and the lack of good tuners for it for forced induction (I only started searching for the last month, so please forgive my ignorance). I understand that this is not a performance vehicle, so there will not be the reputation of top tuners for sports cars with overwhelmingly great followers. I do not want sports car like performance, I just want something that will get out of it's own way when needed. I plan on a SC due to simplicity on adding to a NA vehicle, but I also like the variables a turbo comes with.

With saying this, I understand the JL's are popping more than the JK's. And while it is technically a new platform with the changes, this can be expected. I am still leaning for the JL, but why hasn't the following being discussed;

E85. Doesnt have to be straight, just has to have a few gallon mix to deter knock (tuning required). A small mix 25%-50% of E85 mixed with premium doesn't usually cause problems with vehicles that are not set up to support flex-fuel. After a E50, you also start to see diminishing gains.

I have seen videos of the Prodigy Turbos on Kevin's rig. He was talking about hearing knock. When this happens, it is usually an event that will cause damage if it is audible. Maybe not at the time, but after enough detonation, it will.
Why is there no tuning solution that will monitor how many degrees of timing the ECU is retarding due to the knock sensor detecting pre-detonation? And allowing the driver to observe and adjust until the event is sorted out?

If one has access to E85 to mix with premium, are there tuning solutions that can accommodate multiple maps? E85 mix for good performance, and another map that pulls timing when you only have access to 93 etc.?

Or do I have all of this wrong, and no one has full access to the ECU yet?

Thank you all in advance, and I apologize for my lack of knowledge on this platform.
Issue is the ECU is not fully understood/cracked/available yet so all the tuning being done is utilizing what's available.

Combined with a 11.5:1 compression ratio and not knowing exactly what's going on doesn't mix well.

Anyone who tells you they have it solved have found something that when being used in very controlled situations works.

Eg: No long cross country drives with a variety of conditions and gas quality. Usually outside the winter gas belt. Usually using a single brand of 93 or above that has a stable supply.
 

FlyByU

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"very controlled" is a bit exaggerated, 10,000 miles on standard pump 93 as a daily driver. But your point is valid, 91 octane or less would not be ideal but as I stated, having knock sensors basically turned off in a provided tune is a recipe for disaster. Thats not rocket science.

The PCM is totally cracked and all the parameters are available, its just not setup for boost. My tuner built tables that were zero'd out in the factory PCM. Its there and you can get a fully functioning tune to work with the prodigy kit. Granted this is not what is provided by them. We have total control of cam timing too, its there but most tuners will not put in the time to customize this. Its not run of the mill yet. Not fully understood by all would be more accurate, there are plenty of tuners out there that understand the FCA tuning fully.

Your points are all good ones but a bit overly stated in my opinion. There is no doubt that that a high compression motor is not ideal for boost and never will be, lol.
 

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Let me add that I am speaking of the 3.6L, not sure what has been explored on the 2.0 platform yet. I do not think the tuner compainies have released updates to allow tuning on them yet.
 

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Ereanor

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Thank you for your insight. Maybe the E85 mix is something to look into. It’s what we do on the MazdaSpeed’s as anything over E50 causes Black Death of the cam driven fuel pump. Also causes the fuel level sensor to crap the bed. Takes you from around 350whp to 380-400 with appropriate mods.
 

oceanblue2019

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"very controlled" is a bit exaggerated, 10,000 miles on standard pump 93 as a daily driver. But your point is valid, 91 octane or less would not be ideal but as I stated, having knock sensors basically turned off in a provided tune is a recipe for disaster. Thats not rocket science.

The PCM is totally cracked and all the parameters are available, its just not setup for boost. My tuner built tables that were zero'd out in the factory PCM. Its there and you can get a fully functioning tune to work with the prodigy kit. Granted this is not what is provided by them. We have total control of cam timing too, its there but most tuners will not put in the time to customize this. Its not run of the mill yet. Not fully understood by all would be more accurate, there are plenty of tuners out there that understand the FCA tuning fully.

Your points are all good ones but a bit overly stated in my opinion. There is no doubt that that a high compression motor is not ideal for boost and never will be, lol.
Are you 100% sure you could tune your setup to run reliably in all conditions with 91 or 89 octane? How about winter gas?

I ask as many have told me there is just not enough margin of control to ensure you don't have detonation and engine damage.

They have also said the knock sensors on the 3.6L are for sensing pre-ignition and back off timing; but are not fast enough to react to detonation caused by boost and too much timing before damage is done.

How does your tuner deal with knowing you are in boost?
 

FlyByU

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I'm not a tuner but I am speaking of my real world results. And no I am not 100% it can be tuned to 91 and 89 is just foolish. High performance cars without a turbo dont even run 89 by manufacturer recommendation.

If you are looking for me to say that the factory pcm is capable of handling all aspects of boosted applications as if it was that way from the factory, obviously it's not. But there is enough control to have a tune that allows for good reliable performance at 93 octane by my experience. I cannot speak for lesser octanes but as with all high performance aftermarket forced induction additions, running lesser octanes is foolish, in my opinion.

I am speaking from my real world experiences, not from what I've read and heard. The technical abilities of the knock sensors and their limits are above my head but if properly tuned, your setup should be well within an operating window for 93 octane.

Just so there is no confusion, I am only speaking from my experience with 93 octane. I dont feel 93 octane is a crazy requirement but obviously I live where 93 is standard regardless of time of year.
 

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And aggressive timing wouldn't be recommended, this is not a race car. The timing that is in my tune is less than what the provided canned tune has, there is a reason for that.
 

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I followed Kevins posting of the turbo issues and have some experience installing FI on NA cars. I don't recall if he was running a oil catch can, I know that it can help with the octane rating as well as keeping oil out of the intercooler/intake. I too am hoping to go FI sometime down the line, waiting to see what other companies come out with as I live where 91 is only available. As soon as I read in his FB posts about the compression changes for the JL it did make me worry some..haha
 

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FlyByU

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Its just so darn expensive, 20k minimum. But no doubt a badass mod!!!!
 
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Ereanor

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I followed Kevins posting of the turbo issues and have some experience installing FI on NA cars. I don't recall if he was running a oil catch can, I know that it can help with the octane rating as well as keeping oil out of the intercooler/intake. I too am hoping to go FI sometime down the line, waiting to see what other companies come out with as I live where 91 is only available. As soon as I read in his FB posts about the compression changes for the JL it did make me worry some..haha
I do not recall ever seeing an oil catch can helping with octane. It’s usually best suited for direct injected vehicles keeping junk from building up on the intake valves due to the lack of the port injection benefit of “washing them off”.

If it is a vented catch can than that will help with the blow by associated with high boost applications and getting oil on the IC. But considering how low the boost is on these, I would doubt there to be a problem.
 

moodywizard

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I do not recall ever seeing an oil catch can helping with octane. It’s usually best suited for direct injected vehicles keeping junk from building up on the intake valves due to the lack of the port injection benefit of “washing them off”.

If it is a vented catch can than that will help with the blow by associated with high boost applications and getting oil on the IC. But considering how low the boost is on these, I would doubt there to be a problem.
Ive read that having the oil vapor in the intake track can dilute the octane rating, how much dilution I don't know but whats 100 or so bucks to help the cause. quick google came up with this MFG web site FAQ, mentions octane rating etc.. https://www.addw1.com/pages/faq-oil-catch-can
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