In praise (or not) of ESS? **NO POLITICS**

[BillG]

On this we agree. People are free to do as they wish with ESS. I was responding to the idea that when @BillG said "But it’s my Jeep, so I should have final say." he was referred to more than ESS. Maybe he wasn't.



I'm not, but need I tell you that our government is as are many others worldwide. My thoughts above pertained to things beyond CO2 and ESS: like changes to a vehicle that would fail to make it street legal, and following and traffic law.

@Onyx Dragon : I take it that you've considered that we may never know if CO2 is the definitive proximate cause of Global Warming, or even if changes in our behavior in reducing CO2 will help things. The thing of it us that we may not have the time to wait to prove things beyond a smoking gun standard before we act.

How can we know if CO2 reduction can change global warming, or even if CO2 and global warming are correlated unless we try reducing CO2 (yes, via restrictions) emissions and collect data? If we could first test this in a lab we would.

Unproven science....

We often cannot establish causation between two things, when we see correlation, that can't be tested in a lab were other variables are controlled. Often we cannot wait when one of those things may be approaching "critical mass."

And often, we can prove causation but don't know the mechanism.

If we waited for the proof, for example, as to why so many medicines relatively safely help people, many drugs would have not made it to market (e.g. scientists don't understand why certain classes of meds help conditions without worse side effects--they just do.)

Nobody is yelling "grape fruit stunts growth," and asking you to change your ways around nonsense. We have climate and CO2 data that have risen over the last 100 years like mirror images of each other in ways that I think we simply cannot wait to prove, let alone to the standard of baised doubters, even if you are right, and such climate changes are on CO2 based (e.g. naturally occurring.)

And we're all biased.

I'll even give you that man made things not related to ICE vehicles may be more to blame for CO2. Look up last week's 60 minutes show online and Permafrost. Even then it behooves us to deal with this mess and double down on reducing vehicle emissions to compensate for it.

May you be right. May we see a decade of naturally occuring temperatures that drop because science got it wrong. Let's see less weather events. I would be thrilled to be wrong.

I don't want to be alarmist and change my life over everything science professes but doesn't prove (your point), but I feel enormous obligation to do right by the next generation, given the fact that I am a product of our country's finest generation.

All I was saying, is since right now it isn’t a government mandated device, it should remember the last setting you had it on. If you want it on, you turn it on. Off, you turn it off. Just like the radio, a/c etc.
I realize there are gadgets that do that very thing, but if it isn’t mandated it shouldn’t be forced on anyone by default.

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[Ghuzz]

On this we agree. People are free to do as they wish with ESS. I was responding to the idea that when @BillG said "But it’s my Jeep, so I should have final say." he was referred to more than ESS. Maybe he wasn't.
Unleaded has and catalytic converters sure cleaned up the air in LA , there’s a lot of proof that man can live smog free if he wants too.


I'm not, but need I tell you that our government is as are many others worldwide. My thoughts above pertained to things beyond CO2 and ESS: like changes to a vehicle that would fail to make it street legal, and following and traffic law.

@Onyx Dragon : I take it that you've considered that we may never know if CO2 is the definitive proximate cause of Global Warming, or even if changes in our behavior in reducing CO2 will help things. The thing of it us that we may not have the time to wait to prove things beyond a smoking gun standard before we act.

How can we know if CO2 reduction can change global warming, or even if CO2 and global warming are correlated unless we try reducing CO2 (yes, via restrictions) emissions and collect data? If we could first test this in a lab we would.

Unproven science....

We often cannot establish causation between two things, when we see correlation, that can't be tested in a lab were other variables are controlled. Often we cannot wait when one of those things may be approaching "critical mass."

And often, we can prove causation but don't know the mechanism.

If we waited for the proof, for example, as to why so many medicines relatively safely help people, many drugs would have not made it to market (e.g. scientists don't understand why certain classes of meds help conditions without worse side effects--they just do.)

Nobody is yelling "grape fruit stunts growth," and asking you to change your ways around nonsense. We have climate and CO2 data that have risen over the last 100 years like mirror images of each other in ways that I think we simply cannot wait to prove, let alone to the standard of baised doubters, even if you are right, and such climate changes are on CO2 based (e.g. naturally occurring.)

And we're all biased.

I'll even give you that man made things not related to ICE vehicles may be more to blame for CO2. Look up last week's 60 minutes show online and Permafrost. Even then it behooves us to deal with this mess and double down on reducing vehicle emissions to compensate for it.

May you be right. May we see a decade of naturally occuring temperatures that drop because science got it wrong. Let's see less weather events. I would be thrilled to be wrong.

I don't want to be alarmist and change my life over everything science professes but doesn't prove (your point), but I feel enormous obligation to do right by the next generation, given the fact that I am a product of our country's finest generation.

All I was saying, is since right now it isn’t a government mandated device, it should remember the last setting you had it on. If you want it on, you turn it on. Off, you turn it off. Just like the radio, a/c etc.
I realize there are gadgets that do that very thing, but if it isn’t mandated it shouldn’t be forced on anyone by default.

 

[Shooting or Jeeping]

All I was saying, is since right now it isn’t a government mandated device, it should remember the last setting you had it on. If you want it on, you turn it on. Off, you turn it off. Just like the radio, a/c etc.
I realize there are gadgets that do that very thing, but if it isn’t mandated it shouldn’t be forced on anyone by default.

This is more along the lines of my thoughts. I highly support efforts to help the world we live in. Proven or not, I don’t see an argument for MORE CO2 in the air. So if there is a way to help, slap that puppy on. Just give me the option to turn it off. Let it be my choice to decide my support, not some faceless rulebook.

 

[stil2low]

Why burn gas if you don’t have to? Tree hugger or backwards conservative why breath carbon monoxide if you don’t have to?

The industry I work in produces a good amount of CO emissions so we have training and classes on the effects of it against the human body. We also have to carry monitors that measure our time weight average that the government sets we are allowed to work in and for how long before it becomes unsafe (100ppm for 15 minutes/25ppm for 8 hours)
Ive dropped to my knee once before from too much CO, it’s a brutal feeling and it takes hours for it to leave your system
I completely agree with ya, there no need to be sitting at a light for an extended period breathing in extra CO

 

[Rahneld]

The industry I work in produces a good amount of CO emissions so we have training and classes on the effects of it against the human body. We also have to carry monitors that measure our time weight average that the government sets we are allowed to work in and for how long before it becomes unsafe (100ppm for 15 minutes/25ppm for 8 hours)
Ive dropped to my knee once before from too much CO, it’s a brutal feeling and it takes hours for it to leave your system
I completely agree with ya, there no need to be sitting at a light for an extended period breathing in extra CO

Craig....all noteworthy as I've made my desire above to reduce CO2 emissions clearly known.

But friend, in fairness to facts, CO and CO2 are worlds apart. CO, or carbon monoxide has a greater affinity for hemoglobin in our cells than oxygen and when we are exposed to this odorless and tasteless gas is deadly on a scale of minutes. Carbon monoxide neither rises nor sinks in a room's air, so detectors can be placed at any level, unlike smoke detectors on ceilings, as smoke rises.

CO is the stuff we keep garage doors open when we turn on our ICE vehicles to avoid.

CO2, Carbon dioxide is in abundance in our atmosphere and theorized to be the proximate cause for global warming--much debated here. But that said, the right amounts of CO2 are nothing short of necessary for life. They help regulate our breathing cycle. To little of it and we will hyperventilate: remedy being breathing into a paper bag until, but no longer than CO2 lacking hyperventilation is remedied

 

[Rahneld]

All I was saying, is since right now it isn’t a government mandated device, it should remember the last setting you had it on. If you want it on, you turn it on. Off, you turn it off. Just like the radio, a/c etc.
I realize there are gadgets that do that very thing, but if it isn’t mandated it shouldn’t be forced on anyone by default.

I hear you. It is though a government mandated device (ESS) that defaults to the on state (i.e. ESS will turn on) each time the vehicle starts, if the vehicle manufacturer wants to include said vehicle's MPG in its CAFE standards.

 

[Rahneld]

The vast majority of the populous buys into global warming. I'm pretty sure as a result that it isn't fanatical.

Regardless, China's reported problems are dealt with by both countries (USA and China, along with others) reducing emissions, not finger pointing as to which nation is a worse environmental steward.

 

[timn1984]

Don't get me started on the moon landings and the Illuminati.

Well the real conspiracy is HOW DO YOU HANG YOUR TOILET PAPER? in-hanging or out-hanging
Conservatives- Out- because its easier to get to and anything easier is better.
Liberals- Inside- Because its harder to get to and you will use less, better for the environment

 

[ZEN357]

Why should we have to pay for an option we don't want though?

 

[Sean L]

Why should we have to pay for an option we don't want though?

because its not optional. Just the same as push button start, or Bluetooth integration and seatbelts are not an option but standard equipment.

 

[KDB]

Why should we have to pay for an option we don't want though?

Fact of life.

When i ordered my JLR I would have loved to build her the way I wanted (no power doors/windows) but that wasn't an option. If one could truly build a la cart the cost would be through the roof for ALL wranglers so its partially due to economics as well as politics.

 

[Rahneld]

Why should we have to pay for an option we don't want though?

Fair question. Here's the answer.

In society, many costs are imposed upon you and I, few we like, many we accept, some we hate, some even wrong...

that often with the best of intentions, and often with good, and in fairness sometimes bad outcome..

we have to pay for because the populous at large thinks they serve the public interest greater than your loss of personal freedoms.

Those medicines we take: I'll bet they'd be a lot cheaper if those dang FDA regulators didn't place restrictions on their development and manufacturing.

The food we eat....who needs the expense of clean processing centers and packaging.

Those roads we drive on...screw those defects. I ride a Jeep.

Those laws that limit our freedom.....no rules would be worse.

You payed for feature you didn't want. I respect that. You also were not forced to buy a Wrangler (me too.) We could have waited until the 2020 PHEV. Our government enforced CAFE standards because it feels that we need to not only reduce CO2 emissions but incentivize the industry to move away from limited fossil fuels, a move that won't happen on its own at a pace which eases this transition.

And motivating this move will bring down average cost of electric vehicles for more to afford.

In order to live in a relatively free society we need to remember the operative word in that statement is "live." A hotter planet, crazier weather, flooding--even though some disagree as to CO2 being the cause, interferes with the survival necessary for that relatively free living.

Here's what I don't get. Poll a lot of people who feel like you, even the ones that buy into global warming, and ask them if it's okay if their taxes fund the military and they're in support of that--and that's cool (me too.)

Just stop and consider though that like the military, like costs associated with controlling climate, both exist to support our way of life. : - )

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[timn1984]

Back to the question at hand.
My vote is Yes I like ESS, but it takes a while to get used to it. I had my JLUS since Oct 2018. I now expect it to happen to the point of waiting for the engine to turn off. And the added value is, when or if it does not turn off, I look to see what is the cause. About 2 months ago my ESS was not working, it said "battery charging" for a long time. I took it to the dealer and they replaced the battery and I have had no problems since. There are other threads that detail the ins and outs of ESS, but my point is the ESS not working may be a sign of major problems ahead. Sort of a warning. I like it.

 

[multicam]

Warning: long post ahead. If that offends you somehow feel free to skip it. I do eventually bring it around to ESS though, promise

Since the cat is removed from the bag, let’s go there. Problems I have with global warming:

1. It’s not falsifiable. Well it is, but you’ll have to wait 20 years to falsify it. But they said that 20 years ago... so you’ll actually have to wait 20 more years. Then 10 more. Then 10 more. The impending doom is always impending and it can be postponed as necessary.

2. Any results which don’t fit in with what’s expected in predictive models can be (and often are) explained by ad-hoc modifying statements to the original hypothesis. There is no shortage of these.

3. All the changes made by the USA, Europe, Japan, Canada and Australia are dwarfed and negated by the harm done by the billions of people in the developing world, China, and Russia. And I don’t blame them... we used fossil fuels to get ahead and improve our lives, why shouldn’t they? It’s easy to wag our fingers from our comfy lifestyles at the dirty developing world because we’re affluent enough to buy solar panels and windmills. Deny them fossil fuels and it has a much larger human impact than it does in, say, Scandinavia.

4. In order to convince me that we need to take action about climate change you need to convince me of four things:
i. Global warming is happening
ii. It is caused by humans
iii. Me changing my lifestyle will make a measurable difference (in the face of #3 above)
iv. If we don’t make changes it will lead to catastrophe
You can convince me of i. and maybe ii. but iii. is doubtful. I sure as hell don’t believe iv.

5. Look at my language here, too: “believe.” There’s a huge element of faith to all this because of the whole forward-looking element. I don’t like it when people implement policy based on faith, whether it’s religious faith or “scientific” faith for lack of a better term.

1. and 2. above are characteristics of pseudosciences. I could be more eloquent about the nature of scientific theories and the philosophical problems with distant-future-predicting ones, but I would have to break out Kuhn’s The Structure of Scientific Revolutions and this post would change from an essay to a small novel.

Points 1. through 5. above are why I get bent out of shape when the government coerces FCA to implement ESS and to make the computer forget my choice to disable it. Because of my obsessive-compulsive nature I can’t just let it go, so I’ll end up buying a tool to disable it through software. So thanks for that, CAFE. Sure, this is a personal failing of mine... I can’t let things go that annoy me.

Anyway, we can usually all agree on one thing: saving money and fuel is a good thing. Maybe you’re okay with using ESS to that end; maybe I’m not. My version of saving fuel may be running 35’s and a small lift instead of 40’s and a huge lift. Maybe you couldn’t care less about saving money or fuel. Who cares? Jeeps are awesome because we can make them our own. Just let me do that without having to press an extra button every time I drive.

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