Hydrogen... Jeep, are you paying attention?

[1Evil55]

You, kind sir, get it.

I currently drive a Model 3 while I wait for a Wrangler EV. I love hearing the argument that "EVs are so much more expensive." I'm over here thinking "I swapped a $64,000 Wrangler 4xe for a $47,000 Model 3," so......

I also love the argument that "You can't charge when the power's out." I point out that most gas stations in the area don't have a backup generator, so their customers can't dispense any fuel during power outages either. I also point out that I have a whole-home generator that my Level 2 charger is backed up to, so I can still quick-charge my Tesla if needed.

Again, EVs may not be a perfect solution, but we need to do SOMETHING. We can't just continue to sit on our hands.

Finally, as for building out the infrastructure, I'm just going to leave this map of Tesla's Supercharger network right here...

Note: Telsa is opening up its charging network to all EVs.

I read this and the post you quoted to mean that, you need a better job if you live in an apartment that couldn't charge a EV car in its parking spot. Or if you live in an apartment you shouldn't drive EV at all maybe. If you live in a house you should clap three times so that your roof has solar panels to catch all those rays. I wonder how many panels and sun is required to give a full tank of charge? I do know storing 15 gallons of gas is much easier than banking 15 whatever to make a full charge. Those same 15 gallons are transportable much easier than my generator attached to the roof, that I still need more gas to charge a battery with. Bottom line, I'm not opposed to the technology while at the same time I know it just isn't something I take interest in. Like everything in life, you do you while I'll take care of me. The part I struggle with is when I no longer have an option.

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[No IFS]

The Hindenburg killed hydrogen forever. People are never going to forget that. Obviously, as It was mentioned in the sixth post here.

 

[skiptheroad]

A viable alternative to ICE vehicles will not need any defense from know it alls on forums such as this one. If an alternative fuel source is available, economical, and convenient it will eventually prevail despite any trivial whining for or against any alternative fuel source in the race.

 

[Zandcwhite]

A viable alternative to ICE vehicles will not need any defense from know it alls on forums such as this one. If an alternative fuel source is available, economical, and convenient it will eventually prevail despite any trivial whining for or against any alternative fuel source in the race.

And yet the fact that every major vehicle manufacturer on the planet is going EV hasn’t stopped the whining? The 2 biggest markets on the planet in CA and NY won’t have ICE vehicle sales within 12 years (along with multiple other states)The race is over no matter how deep the ICE community wants to bury their heads. If they can’t sell ICE vehicles to over 50% of Americans, do you really think they will bother producing them?

 

[multicam]

And yet the fact that every major vehicle manufacturer on the planet is going EV hasn’t stopped the whining? The 2 biggest markets on the planet in CA and NY won’t have ICE vehicle sales within 12 years (along with multiple other states)The race is over no matter how deep the ICE community wants to bury their heads. If they can’t sell ICE vehicles to over 50% of Americans, do you really think they will bother producing them?

Your post implies that market forces are the primary driver of the shift to EVs. I would argue that it is more complicated than that. CA and NY banning the sale of new ICE vehicles 12 years from now isn’t a reflection of where the market is, it’s a reflection of the political climate in those states. That can and very well might change when consumers go to purchase a vehicle in 12 years and realize they don’t have the options they want. Or they’ll just drive to Nevada to buy their car… I don’t know.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Your post implies that market forces are the primary driver of the shift to EVs. I would argue that it is more complicated than that. CA and NY banning the sale of new ICE vehicles 12 years from now isn’t a reflection of where the market is, it’s a reflection of the political climate in those states. That can and very well might change when consumers go to purchase a vehicle in 12 years and realize they don’t have the options they want. Or they’ll just drive to Nevada to buy their car… I don’t know.

It's not market forces...Ford and gm were both on the brink of bankruptcy were it not for government bailouts while an EV startup became the most valuable auto manufacturer in American history, but I guess that's not market forces?

 

[multicam]

It's not market forces...Ford and gm were both on the brink of bankruptcy were it not for government bailouts while an EV startup became the most valuable auto manufacturer in American history, but I guess that's not market forces?

None of those things address what I said. Ford and GM weren’t on the brink of bankruptcy because their fleet was composed of ICE vehicles and Tesla’s market cap doesn’t have anything to do with the fact that EVs still represent a small portion of the auto market.

By your logic Ford, GM, Stellantis, Toyota, Nissan, etc. should cease ICE vehicle production immediately and only sell EVs because that’s what Tesla is doing and they’re the most valuable, right?

Am I missing something? EV sales have climbed tremendously but they still only make up 6% of the market. Do you think they’ll make up 50% by 2030?

Where do tax incentives fall into this equation? Would EVs make up 6% of the market right now if those had never existed?

 

[pablo_max3045]

None of those things address what I said. Ford and GM weren’t on the brink of bankruptcy because their fleet was composed of ICE vehicles and Tesla’s market cap doesn’t have anything to do with the fact that EVs still represent a small portion of the auto market.

By your logic Ford, GM, Stellantis, Toyota, Nissan, etc. should cease ICE vehicle production immediately and only sell EVs because that’s what Tesla is doing and they’re the most valuable, right?

Am I missing something? EV sales have climbed tremendously but they still only make up 6% of the market. Do you think they’ll make up 50% by 2030?

Where do tax incentives fall into this equation? Would EVs make up 6% of the market right now if those had never existed?

You talk about tax credits as a way to imply that things are stacked against ICE and oil, which is silly.

Do you know how many tax dollars have gone into subsidizing Oil and gas, both direct and indirect over the last 40 years? Hundreds of billions dollars and they continue still. Vastly more of your tax dollars go into Oil today than to EV tax credits. Orders of magnitude.

Do you believe that we would have had the decades of cheap fuels and industrial chemical stocks that we have now without that massive tax investment? Of course we wouldn't.
Letting the market decide certain things is a non-tenable solution simply because humans tend to be very poor at looking beyond the immediate. People will take what is most profitable in that moment and hope shit works out somehow down the road.

No one is saying that 50% of vehicle on the road by 2030 will be EV. 50% of NEW vehicle sales will be though. Certainly not in 2nd and 3rd world countries or even low density 1st world countries like Australia. But the US, Europe? Certainly.

 

[Zandcwhite]

None of those things address what I said. Ford and GM weren’t on the brink of bankruptcy because their fleet was composed of ICE vehicles and Tesla’s market cap doesn’t have anything to do with the fact that EVs still represent a small portion of the auto market.

By your logic Ford, GM, Stellantis, Toyota, Nissan, etc. should cease ICE vehicle production immediately and only sell EVs because that’s what Tesla is doing and they’re the most valuable, right?

Am I missing something? EV sales have climbed tremendously but they still only make up 6% of the market. Do you think they’ll make up 50% by 2030?

Where do tax incentives fall into this equation? Would EVs make up 6% of the market right now if those had never existed?

CA makes up 44% of the US market share. Where they go is where the auto industry has no choice but to go. By 2035 0% of their new vehicle sales will be ICE, and unless hydrogen tech makes massive improvements I'd bet 90+% of those sales will be EV. Didn't dodge announce their end of ICE production by then already? At this point it's not writing on the wall, it's simple facts.

 

[Yankee1019]

What about swappable hydrogen fuel cells. If manufacturers could agree to a standard then you could have places where you pull up, dismount your empty fuel cells and swap back in full ones. Similar to propane cylinder exchange done at stores right now. This could also work for batteries in EVs. Then, instead of having to build stations with specialized equipment and ways to transport, you could use over the road trucks and just need storage areas for the fuel cells.

I haven’t read through all of the comments in this thread yet so I don’t know if anybody else addressed this. Hydrogen fuel cells don’t work like that. The fuel cell “stack” never gets removed (unless there is some internal failure) you only need to replenish the hydrogen supply in the vehicle. Think of it like a tank of CO2 for drink machines at restaurants or acetylene tanks for welding machine. Tank runs empty, swap the tank.

 

[Apexcars]

I haven’t read through all of the comments in this thread yet so I don’t know if anybody else addressed this. Hydrogen fuel cells don’t work like that. The fuel cell “stack” never gets removed (unless there is some internal failure) you only need to replenish the hydrogen supply in the vehicle. Think of it like a tank of CO2 for drink machines at restaurants or acetylene tanks for welding machine. Tank runs empty, swap the tank.

Isn’t that what I was saying? Tank runs empty, swap the tank and keep going. Or are you saying that is already how they do it with hydrogen?

 

[Captain Skip]

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do-fuel-cell-electric-cars-work

https://www.businessinsider.com/there-are-more-gas-powered-car-fires-than-electric-car-fires-2016-8

https://hydrogen.wsu.edu/2017/03/17/so-just-how-dangerous-is-hydrogen-fuel/

 

[Yankee1019]

What about swappable hydrogen fuel cells. … dismount your empty fuel cells and swap back in full ones.

These lines are what made me think otherwise. The fuels cells stay in the vehicle.

 

[Apexcars]

Ok, I get what you are saying. It would be swappable tanks not cells. Instead of pulling up to refill the tanks with hydrogen you could swap out empty tanks for full tanks and then get going again.

 

[av8or]

I have to admit I didn’t read every post in this thread but……I keep hearing that hydrogen fuel cell cars are a net negative compared to EVs. Another words it takes more electricity to produce, compress, store, and fill a fuel cell vehicle for 300 miles of range than it does to just charge the battery of an EV for 300 miles. If there’s any truth to that, either way the electrical grid will have to be improved.

I for one don’t understand the range anxiety none EV owners have. I’ve been to some of the remotest parts of the country and while not every town has a gas station and for sure I’ve never seen a hydrogen filling station, but every town has electricity…..

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