Hydrogen... Jeep, are you paying attention?

[Yankee1019]

Ok, I get what you are saying. It would be swappable tanks not cells. Instead of pulling up to refill the tanks with hydrogen you could swap out empty tanks for full tanks and then get going again.

Yes. Exactly this. I would think that it would be much easier for the industry to agree on a standardized tank interface as well. “Fill stations” should also be able to fill empty tanks on-site from a larger semi-trailer sized tank so they wouldn’t have to keep a large inventory of vehicle sized cylinders. Swap yours out for full ones then fill your empties for a future customer.

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[Sean L]

Ok, I get what you are saying. It would be swappable tanks not cells. Instead of pulling up to refill the tanks with hydrogen you could swap out empty tanks for full tanks and then get going again.

Seems like it would be less time to just fill it at the station rather than try to swap tanks.

Still... 60 bucks to fill a car the size of a Camry...

 

[Yankee1019]

Seems like it would be less time to just fill it at the station rather than try to swap tanks.

Still... 60 bucks to fill a car the size of a Camry...

No doubt $60 is steep but that cost would go down over time as usage went up. At least that’s how it’s supposed to work with economies of scale and all that. IMO swapping tanks would be the better method long term because high pressure tanks should be inspected periodically for any signs of damage, wear, or degradation. If you have seen a video of the damage a car tire exploding at 35-40 PSI can do image what a tank failure at 1000-2000 PSI would do….

 

[Zandcwhite]

Seems like it would be less time to just fill it at the station rather than try to swap tanks.

Still... 60 bucks to fill a car the size of a Camry...

And in real world use it has less range than a standard ICE Camry. I just don't see the gain?

 

[Sean L]

No doubt $60 is steep but that cost would go down over time as usage went up. At least that’s how it’s supposed to work with economies of scale and all that. IMO swapping tanks would be the better method long term because high pressure tanks should be inspected periodically for any signs of damage, wear, or degradation. If you have seen a video of the damage a car tire exploding at 35-40 PSI can do image what a tank failure at 1000-2000 PSI would do….

One would think that fuel tank inspections would be a part of the maintenance cycle of the car. But that's just a guess and can only hope that Toyota would have techs trained to do that.

 

[Sean L]

And in real world use it has less range than a standard ICE Camry. I just don't see the gain?

Its still a long way from mainstream for sure.

 

[av8or]

Seems like free charging at home with solar should make sense to everyone, but for some reason people want to buy energy that’s free.

 

[Sean L]

Seems like free charging at home with solar should make sense to everyone, but for some reason people want to buy energy that’s free.

I'm all for solar, but the panels definitely aren't free.

 

[Captain Skip]

No doubt $60 is steep but that cost would go down over time as usage went up. At least that’s how it’s supposed to work with economies of scale and all that. IMO swapping tanks would be the better method long term because high pressure tanks should be inspected periodically for any signs of damage, wear, or degradation. If you have seen a video of the damage a car tire exploding at 35-40 PSI can do image what a tank failure at 1000-2000 PSI would do….

According to a Washington State University study, gasoline is more likely to explode.

"So how dangerous is hydrogen fuel? In many situations where a vehicle is located outdoors hydrogen is safer than conventional liquid fuels or natural gas. This in no way implies that hydrogen is not dangerous — there are many situations where hydrogen, like any other fuel or energy storage device, can cause an accident. As one life-long hydrogen expert said to me once, “Hydrogen is no better, nor worse, than any other fuel. You just have to know the rules for working with hydrogen.” Hence our work and mission."
https://hydrogen.wsu.edu/2017/03/17/so-just-how-dangerous-is-hydrogen-fuel/

 

[Captain Skip]

And in real world use it has less range than a standard ICE Camry. I just don't see the gain?

Quicker fillups than sitting at a battery charger for 30 to 45 minutes.

 

[av8or]

I'm all for solar, but the panels definitely aren't free.

True, but the payments are less than my old power bill and will go to $0.00 in another 2 years.

 

[Sean L]

True, but the payments are less than my old power bill and will go to $0.00 in another 2 years.

Do you have enough to be fully independent of the power grid? Would be pretty cool if that's the case. And can you run a higher voltage EV charger on it?

 

[JLUHT]

I remember hearing about this on Coast to Coast AM back in ~2002
Water vapor exhaust?

Do you have electricity at home? Then you have the ability to charge an EV. Plus I'm willing to bet that there are high voltage EV charging stations not too far from you, unless you're WAYYYY out in the boonies.

My point being electrical infrastructure is all over the country, but Hydrogen isn't.

Infrastructure for transporting gasses are well established, this would be just another gas to move around. Infrastructure for High Voltage charging stations at home would need a lot of retrofitting.

 

[Yankee1019]

According to a Washington State University study, gasoline is more likely to explode.

"So how dangerous is hydrogen fuel? In many situations where a vehicle is located outdoors hydrogen is safer than conventional liquid fuels or natural gas. This in no way implies that hydrogen is not dangerous — there are many situations where hydrogen, like any other fuel or energy storage device, can cause an accident. As one life-long hydrogen expert said to me once, “Hydrogen is no better, nor worse, than any other fuel. You just have to know the rules for working with hydrogen.” Hence our work and mission."
https://hydrogen.wsu.edu/2017/03/17/so-just-how-dangerous-is-hydrogen-fuel/

I’m not talking about the fuel exploding. I’m talking about a physical failure of the pressure vessel. It’s extremely rare as far as I know but also extremely dangerous. This is why most, if not all high pressure gas cylinders require periodic hydrostatic testing to help ensure that the cylinder won’t fail during filling. This is even a part of some DOT requirements.

 

[multicam]

You talk about tax credits as a way to imply that things are stacked against ICE and oil, which is silly.

Do you know how many tax dollars have gone into subsidizing Oil and gas, both direct and indirect over the last 40 years? Hundreds of billions dollars and they continue still. Vastly more of your tax dollars go into Oil today than to EV tax credits. Orders of magnitude.

Do you believe that we would have had the decades of cheap fuels and industrial chemical stocks that we have now without that massive tax investment? Of course we wouldn't.
Letting the market decide certain things is a non-tenable solution simply because humans tend to be very poor at looking beyond the immediate. People will take what is most profitable in that moment and hope shit works out somehow down the road.

No one is saying that 50% of vehicle on the road by 2030 will be EV. 50% of NEW vehicle sales will be though. Certainly not in 2nd and 3rd world countries or even low density 1st world countries like Australia. But the US, Europe? Certainly.

Things are stacked against ICE vehicles if the mere act of selling them becomes illegal…

I’m not talking about subsidies, I’m talking about the market, i.e. what people want to purchase. If the government has to ban ICE-powered cars to get people to not buy them… why are we banning them again?

CA makes up 44% of the US market share. Where they go is where the auto industry has no choice but to go. By 2035 0% of their new vehicle sales will be ICE, and unless hydrogen tech makes massive improvements I'd bet 90+% of those sales will be EV. Didn't dodge announce their end of ICE production by then already? At this point it's not writing on the wall, it's simple facts.

Legislation can be overturned… oh wait this wasn’t legislation was it? It was a mandate by a government entity. That’s an even BETTER indication that the people of California want to ban ICE vehicles! (Sarcasm)

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