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Hydrogen... Jeep, are you paying attention?

Rusty Shovel

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Can the planet sustain continued exclusive use of fossil fuels that also poisons our ecosystem? Old batteries can be recycled a lot easier than coal ash.

As it sits right now, generating Hydrogen from electrolysis uses a lot of electricity, and it a less efficient "storage" medium compared to the power used to generate it. Not only that, it tends to leak out of its containers because the molecules are so small.

Eventually hydrogen might get more efficient than batteries. That's a long ways away, and Battery tech might stay ahead as it advances.
I think everyone agrees that EITHER batteries or hydrogen is a better solution than continued use of fossil fuels.

As for the rest, both technologies are in their infancy--correction: hydrogen tech is in its infancy, large-scale battery tech is, at best, a toddler. As battery tech matures, its drawbacks are becoming better and better known. Who was at the forefront of electrification? Toyota. Who is having second thoughts and investing heavily in hydrogen tech? Toyota.

Solid state batteries MAY make pursuing hydrogen power obsolete; increasingly frugal methods (or endless fusion power) to create and store hydrogen MAY make large-scale battery storage obsolete. It's too early to know which tech will prevail, but in it's current form, large-scale battery tech is NOT ready for widespread use.

Smarter people than me are working on a solution from many different angles. All of your points are valid...and so are mine. Personally, I hope hydrogen wins out, if only because electric cars feel soulless.
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av8or

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I think everyone agrees that EITHER batteries or hydrogen is a better solution than continued use of fossil fuels.

As for the rest, both technologies are in their infancy--correction: hydrogen tech is in its infancy, large-scale battery tech is, at best, a toddler. As battery tech matures, its drawbacks are becoming better and better known. Who was at the forefront of electrification? Toyota. Who is having second thoughts and investing heavily in hydrogen tech? Toyota.

Solid state batteries MAY make pursuing hydrogen power obsolete; increasingly frugal methods (or endless fusion power) to create and store hydrogen MAY make large-scale battery storage obsolete. It's too early to know which tech will prevail, but in it's current form, large-scale battery tech is NOT ready for widespread use.

Smarter people than me are working on a solution from many different angles. All of your points are valid...and so are mine. Personally, I hope hydrogen wins out, if only because electric cars feel soulless.
And boom!
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nuclear-fusion-energy-breakthrough-announcement/
 

Sean L

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I think everyone agrees that EITHER batteries or hydrogen is a better solution than continued use of fossil fuels.
I agree. Even though Fossil fuels will be around for quite some time, it is good to supplement their use with solar, wind and nuclear power.

Who is having second thoughts and investing heavily in hydrogen tech? Toyota.
Second thoughts? Toyota started development on Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars in 1992, and had a working concept car in 1996. Toyota is just being forward thinking and developing what tech they can. They're still going to sell 1000 Prius and Corolla Hybrids for every Mirai they sell.

but in it's current form, large-scale battery tech is NOT ready for widespread use.
Its already in widespread use at every solar farm you see. And there are some massive solar farms in Utah, lol.
Jeep Wrangler JL Hydrogen... Jeep, are you paying attention? 1670963611433

But without batteries to store the surplus produced during the day, you'd just lose power every night.

But I think I can agree with you, that developing both techs, is better than doing nothing.
 

Rusty Shovel

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Itā€™s already in widespread use.
I was referring to automotive use. I donā€™t know what percentage would be considered ā€˜widespread.ā€™ Perhaps 15%?

Currently, only 2.2% of the automotive market is electric. Heavy trucking? Zero percent.

California recently had to ask EV owners NOT to charge their cars during a heat wave because the grid couldnā€™t take it.

Would adding hydrogen pumps at truck stops be more costly than revamping our entire electrical grid to handle the unprecedented load? I honestly donā€™t know.

But until a super-battery is perfected or the technical (and financial) hurdles of hydrogen are overcome, it doesnā€™t seem likely that either technology is capable of replacing internal combustion.

I remain hopeful. It seems like breakthroughs are being made every day.
 

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Sean L

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I was referring to automotive use. I donā€™t know what percentage would be considered ā€˜widespread.ā€™ Perhaps 15%?

Currently, only 2.2% of the automotive market is electric. Heavy trucking? Zero percent.

California recently had to ask EV owners NOT to charge their cars during a heat wave because the grid couldnā€™t take it.

Would adding hydrogen pumps at truck stops be more costly than revamping our entire electrical grid to handle the unprecedented load? I honestly donā€™t know.

But until a super-battery is perfected or the technical (and financial) hurdles of hydrogen are overcome, it doesnā€™t seem likely that either technology is capable of replacing internal combustion.

I remain hopeful. It seems like breakthroughs are being made every day.
Its more like a 6% share currently. Sales are dominated by Tesla Models Y and 3 with the Ford Mach E a distant third.

https://electrek.co/2022/10/18/us-e...The United States has now,a 50% share by 2030.

The article doesn't include most hybrids, but does include the BMW I3 and I8 for some reason.
Either way it shows they're pretty much mainstream now. They're not dominant, and will not be dominant for some time but they're at a point where you're going to see them quite regularly.

California is a poorly managed state and therefore a pretty bad example to use in an EV discussion. They simply don't have the power to support their population. They had rolling blackouts long before EVs were any measurable portion of the vehicle market. They refuse to use perfectly good nuclear power plants, among many other things I could complain about... I don't want to get political and get modded out though, lol.
 

Rusty Shovel

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Hey Sean,

I've enjoyed our back-and-forth on the Hydrogen vs. Batteries discussion. Obviously it's a topic each of us has interest in--but I think we left everyone else behind! LOL.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the topic. My Google feed is about 50% alternative energy related news stories because I always click on them!

I think alternative energy is the 'moon-shot' of our generation. It seems like there are exciting breakthroughs everyday...followed by sobering discussions of the hurdles involved prior to implementation.

Remember bio-diesel? I was totally convinced it was the answer.

I've since decided to take my scientific opinions with a massive dose of salt.

Cheers,

Rusty
 

Sean L

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Hey Sean,

I've enjoyed our back-and-forth on the Hydrogen vs. Batteries discussion. Obviously it's a topic each of us has interest in--but I think we left everyone else behind! LOL.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the topic. My Google feed is about 50% alternative energy related news stories because I always click on them!

I think alternative energy is the 'moon-shot' of our generation. It seems like there are exciting breakthroughs everyday...followed by sobering discussions of the hurdles involved prior to implementation.

Remember bio-diesel? I was totally convinced it was the answer.

I've since decided to take my scientific opinions with a massive dose of salt.

Cheers,

Rusty
I've noticed since we started our discussion that all of my YouTube ads have been for Rooftop Solar systems.

And yeah I remember I had a few friends with 7.3 liter F-250s running on french fry oil back when I was still in 29 Palms. You could hear the turbo from a mile away and the parking lot smelled like McDonalds right after they parked.
 

Rusty Shovel

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Six years of complimentary fuel!? Wow.
 

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av8or

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Sunshine is free. Why buy energy when itā€™s free? The ā€MANā€ doesnā€™t like freeā€¦ā€¦so they keep trying to come up with something that can be sold to you. Donā€™t get tricked by the ā€œMANā€.
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