Help! Issues after ACT Clutch install.

[autotragic]

Yours should be easy by comparison though...

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[Terrymo]

Sometimes you gotta laugh a little even if you feel like crying on the inside. Sorry you’re going through this. I’m routing for you and @roaniecowpony to get this sorted out.

 

[SadRobot]

Sometimes you gotta laugh a little even if you feel like crying on the inside. Sorry you’re going through this. I’m routing for you and @roaniecowpony to get this sorted out.

Hey it wasn't all bad. I got 2 homemade cookies and some in-n-out fries out of this ordeal yesterday.

 

[Duece McCracken]

Ok, i've been reading this thread, and I have somewhat similar issues.

2023 JTR

So I installed an ACT with the heavy flywheel, I think like 15 or 20k miles ago. I used a super thin coating of grease on the splines, just shifted the trans back so the shift cables were not removed.

I didnt have the slave seated fully in the clutch fork. It drove fine for a few days then slipped out. Had to do a roadside repair. Over extended the slave, filled the bellows with brake fluid, reset it, and its functioned well, lol. Did not bleed the system.

Bought a borescope, fished it up the bellhousing and confirmed proper seating of the slave. Also checked for brake fluid contamination, didnt see any. The slave bellows caught and contained all the fluid. Which was fortunate.

Discussed my situation directly with ACTman through PMs to see if the slave needed to be replaced. I have kinda been dicking around by not replacing it as a test. Its been functioning fine. I have a spare OEM on the shelf next to my power bleeder for when I do swap it, lol.

Installed B&M shifters. No issues.

Developed the groan from the black friday clutch batch of that year. ACT points towards an increase in Marcal in that batch, making more groan but not affecting performance. It groans a bit on rubbing, only low speed. Doesnt concern me as long as its not wearing prematurely.

Okay, sorry for all the background, but full disclosure.

At 42k miles now. Had the jeep sit for about 4 days, winter weather, hopped in it, and it wouldnt go into first. Forced it into first after working through a few other gears(no grind). Got to bottom of my driveway, couldnt get into reverse. Dicked around a bit, got it to engage. Drove ok for the day.

Every once in awhile now, having 1st or reverse get difficult. I shift around, double clutch, and jam it in. No grinding. Just extra force.

It's intermittent at best. Not very consistent. Doesnt seem to be getting worse.

My plan of action, is to power bleed my clutch hydraulics. My trusty Motive power bleeder will be used.

In light of this thread, I'll inspect all clutch line fittings, master cylinder, and borescope my clutch again to look for anything abnormal.

Not sure if I want to swap slaves yet. I have the part, not sure if I want to introduce that variable yet. Depends on if bleeding it changes clutch feel or causes a blow out somewhere, lmfao

 

[autotragic]

Ok, i've been reading this thread, and I have somewhat similar issues.

2023 JTR

So I installed an ACT with the heavy flywheel, I think like 15 or 20k miles ago. I used a super thin coating of grease on the splines, just shifted the trans back so the shift cables were not removed.

I didnt have the slave seated fully in the clutch fork. It drove fine for a few days then slipped out. Had to do a roadside repair. Over extended the slave, filled the bellows with brake fluid, reset it, and its functioned well, lol. Did not bleed the system.

Bought a borescope, fished it up the bellhousing and confirmed proper seating of the slave. Also checked for brake fluid contamination, didnt see any. The slave bellows caught and contained all the fluid. Which was fortunate.

Discussed my situation directly with ACTman through PMs to see if the slave needed to be replaced. I have kinda been dicking around by not replacing it as a test. Its been functioning fine. I have a spare OEM on the shelf next to my power bleeder for when I do swap it, lol.

Installed B&M shifters. No issues.

Developed the groan from the black friday clutch batch of that year. ACT points towards an increase in Marcal in that batch, making more groan but not affecting performance. It groans a bit on rubbing, only low speed. Doesnt concern me as long as its not wearing prematurely.

Okay, sorry for all the background, but full disclosure.

At 42k miles now. Had the jeep sit for about 4 days, winter weather, hopped in it, and it wouldnt go into first. Forced it into first after working through a few other gears(no grind). Got to bottom of my driveway, couldnt get into reverse. Dicked around a bit, got it to engage. Drove ok for the day.

Every once in awhile now, having 1st or reverse get difficult. I shift around, double clutch, and jam it in. No grinding. Just extra force.

It's intermittent at best. Not very consistent. Doesnt seem to be getting worse.

My plan of action, is to power bleed my clutch hydraulics. My trusty Motive power bleeder will be used.

In light of this thread, I'll inspect all clutch line fittings, master cylinder, and borescope my clutch again to look for anything abnormal.

Not sure if I want to swap slaves yet. I have the part, not sure if I want to introduce that variable yet. Depends on if bleeding it changes clutch feel or causes a blow out somewhere, lmfao

This is why I'm not replacing my clutch preemptively. I'll let it wear out and the replace it as needed. As much as I hate the lack of feel and flywheel inertia leading to stalls that shouldn't happen it seems to be holding up and otherwise functioning just fine. I'm not "happy" with it, so much as better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

 

[Duece McCracken]

This is why I'm not replacing my clutch preemptively. I'll let it wear out and the replace it as needed. As much as I hate the lack of feel and flywheel inertia leading to stalls that shouldn't happen it seems to be holding up and otherwise functioning just fine. I'm not "happy" with it, so much as better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

Gotta say, Im much happier with the ACT regardless. Especially offroad. That extra mass changes everything. The OEM clutch was the worst feeling clutch I've ever experienced(have had a dozen plus manual cars/trucks and many motorcycles). The play in the dual mass always made the engagement point vauge. Drove me nuts.

I have zero regrets, thus far, with my ACT clutch setup. Would do it again.

 

[autotragic]

Gotta say, Im much happier with the ACT regardless. Especially offroad. That extra mass changes everything. The OEM clutch was the worst feeling clutch I've ever experienced(have had a dozen plus manual cars/trucks and many motorcycles). The play in the dual mass always made the engagement point vauge. Drove me nuts.

I have zero regrets, thus far, with my ACT clutch setup. Would do it again.

Yeah I know if I replaced it I'd be happier but I like not having to faff about with nonsense either.

 

[Duece McCracken]

Yeah I know if I replaced it I'd be happier but I like not having to faff about with nonsense either.

Absolutely! I've been breaking and fixing things for so long I dont mind rolling the dice. I have buddies that get stressed out just hearing about what I discover/deal with let alone experiencing it themselves, lol!

 

[autotragic]

Absolutely! I've been breaking and fixing things for so long I dont mind rolling the dice. I have buddies that get stressed out just hearing about what I discover/deal with let alone experiencing it themselves, lol!

The problem I have is the older I get the less tolerance for BS I have. And I've found over the years that too many aftermarket parts are not in fact better than OEM and usually don't hold up as well as OEM.

 

[58Willys]

By the description of the symptoms you are experiencing, it sounds like a hydraulic actuation issue, probably due to air in system or moisture contaminated fluid. In my experience, hydraulic clutches are very difficult and time consuming to bleed.

The factory service manual states "not to bleed system without special proper master cylinder adapter. The wrong adapter can lead to leakage or drawing air back into the system".

Yes, FSM always recommend special expensive factory tools; but maybe in this case this is what you need to do. You could also try a manual bleed by pumping clutch 3 or 4 times, then holding clutch to the floor for 30 seconds; repeat 10 times. This is what I've had to do on my 2000 F350, even after bench bleeding.

Have you checked the line from the brake master cylinder to clutch master? Any cracks, leaks etc... Have you verified (bore scope) the slave cylinder rod is in the proper position, and not leaking inside the bell housing? Is the fluid level remaining at a constant level?

If this were me, at this point I would verify everything is installed properly, perform a fluid (brake) flush, get the factory master cylinder adapter, and rebleed everything per FSM. There are three different FSM procedures for bleeding the clutch, including a special "low pedal" procedure. If I can figure out how to copy the procedure I will post it, haven't been able to figure out how yet (smarter with mechanical stuff than computers). If this doesn't work, at least you know these things are not the issue and you can look at other components.

Best of Luck

 

[autotragic]

By the description of the symptoms you are experiencing, it sounds like a hydraulic actuation issue, probably due to air in system or moisture contaminated fluid. In my experience, hydraulic clutches are very difficult and time consuming to bleed.

The factory service manual states "not to bleed system without special proper master cylinder adapter. The wrong adapter can lead to leakage or drawing air back into the system".

Yes, FSM always recommend special expensive factory tools; but maybe in this case this is what you need to do. You could also try a manual bleed by pumping clutch 3 or 4 times, then holding clutch to the floor for 30 seconds; repeat 10 times. This is what I've had to do on my 2000 F350, even after bench bleeding.

Have you checked the line from the brake master cylinder to clutch master? Any cracks, leaks etc... Have you verified (bore scope) the slave cylinder rod is in the proper position, and not leaking inside the bell housing? Is the fluid level remaining at a constant level?

If this were me, at this point I would verify everything is installed properly, perform a fluid (brake) flush, get the factory master cylinder adapter, and rebleed everything per FSM. There are three different FSM procedures for bleeding the clutch, including a special "low pedal" procedure. If I can figure out how to copy the procedure I will post it, haven't been able to figure out how yet (smarter with mechanical stuff than computers). If this doesn't work, at least you know these things are not the issue and you can look at other components.

Best of Luck

What boils my blood is what engineer thought this hybrid hydraulic actuated nonsense was a good idea?

All the fluid and cylinders do is replace a cable like they would have used back in the day. And it's a bitch to maintain and service where a cable is much easier. It's complexity for complexities sake because that's what is taught in school as "best practice" and they don't question it.

A true hydraulic clutch uses the throwout bearing itself to push against the pressure plate using hydraulic pressure. The Jeep system uses the slave cylinder to push on a conventional internal fork that has a conventional style throwout bearing mounted to it. It's just dumb.

This is the system I assumed Jeep was using which is why I said something about the throwout bearing "collapsing"...which it can't do since Jeep didn't even see fit to use a real hydraulic clutch system. It's a half assed implementation.

 

[fspalt]

@SadRobot did you get reimbursed for the clutch recall? You could try taking it in a having the recall done if not and going back to stock. At least then you can eliminate an issue with the clutch or install. They may even troubleshoot the hydraulic issues if you can get it to the dealer with it half working if they think doing the recall caused your hydraulic issues.

 

[fspalt]

The hydraulic clutch wouldn’t be that bad if there was some adjustment available. Especially with the fact that such a small difference in the amount of travel goes from a working clutch to major issues. How hard would it be to make an adjustable slave cylinder? Maybe you would shorten the piston rod and then use shims to increase the length of the rod by having shims between the piston and nub that seats in the pivot arm. I believe center force modified a JK clutch for their setup in this manner.


https://www.extremeterrain.com/cent...x2EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds#gad_source_1&got=true


If that machines piece on the end was threaded you could have different thickness rings that you could change out. It would take some work to remove the slave but that’s only 2 bolts.

What boils my blood is what engineer thought this hybrid hydraulic actuated nonsense was a good idea?

All the fluid and cylinders do is replace a cable like they would have used back in the day. And it's a bitch to maintain and service where a cable is much easier. It's complexity for complexities sake because that's what is taught in school as "best practice" and they don't question it.

A true hydraulic clutch uses the throwout bearing itself to push against the pressure plate using hydraulic pressure. The Jeep system uses the slave cylinder to push on a conventional internal fork that has a conventional style throwout bearing mounted to it. It's just dumb.

 

[autotragic]

The hydraulic clutch wouldn’t be that bad if there was some adjustment available. Especially with the fact that such a small difference in the amount of travel goes from a working clutch to major issues. How hard would it be to make an adjustable slave cylinder? Maybe you would shorten the piston rod and then use shims to increase the length of the rod by having shims between the piston and nub that seats in the pivot arm. I believe center force modified a JK clutch for their setup in this manner.


https://www.extremeterrain.com/centerforce-jeep-wrangler-hydraulic-master-slave-assembly-601819.html?utm_content=XTDriveline-ClutchandFlywheel|Centerforce&T5_Var4=J181440&intl=0&utm_campaign=XTW+Wrangler+Brands+&+Vehicle+Low+LTVTop&dialogtech=ppc&utm_source=google-pla&utm_medium=shopping&T5_Var2=shopping&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADdHURSEI9RQ3EpSxtfCr9TGSQXxn&gclid=Cj0KCQiApNW6BhD5ARIsACmEbkVYJW5higebJ2Hk6Q7JzfDXHGlkeWC5UbMppUmg_ZPxJvMUGHIqRIgaAlx2EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds#gad_source_1&got=true


If that machines piece on the end was threaded you could have different thickness rings that you could change out. It would take some work to remove the slave but that’s only 2 bolts.

Allegedly it's supposed to adjust itself at the clutch master cylinder. When you push the peddle down fluid is taken from the brake master and pushed into the clutch system and as you wear down the clutch more fluid can be drawn in to take up the slack. I guess it works fine for stock clutches. There are people with well over 100,000 miles on stock clutches without a problem.

 

[fspalt]

Is that the case for the ACT clutch as well? Doesn’t the pressure plate self adjust on the stock clutch? I thought the ACT was more traditional design. Also if the stroke is off to begin with or right on the edge then it may still be out of the operating range. I’m curious about of tolerances from Jeep to Jeep. Maybe those of us that are having issues are on the fringe.

Allegedly it's supposed to adjust itself at the clutch master cylinder. When you push the peddle down fluid is taken from the brake master and pushed into the clutch system and as you wear down the clutch more fluid can be drawn in to take up the slack. I guess it works fine for stock clutches. There are people with well over 100,000 miles on stock clutches without a problem.

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