Great deal on Mobil 1 Extended Performance Oil Filters

CarbonSteel

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Blackstone will tell you that no filter will impact insolubles so you will not see a difference.
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Blackstone will tell you that no filter will impact insolubles so you will not see a difference.
Here's a direct quote of Blackstone's comment on my last UOA, dated 9/16/19...."The oil filter didn't struggle to keep oxidized solids (insolubles) under control."
 

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Here's a direct quote of Blackstone's comment on my last UOA, dated 9/16/19...."The oil filter didn't struggle to keep oxidized solids (insolubles) under control."
Ask them to give you evidence that any one filter (over any other) can show a consistent and marked difference in the insolubles in a UOA.

The short answer is they cannot because if they could that particular filter would be "the best" with data to prove it. They have said over and over that filters make no measureable difference in UOA results.
 

DanW

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Ask them to give you evidence that any one filter (over any other) can show a consistent and marked difference in the insolubles in a UOA.

The short answer is they cannot because if they could that particular filter would be "the best" with data to prove it. They have said over and over that filters make no measureable difference in UOA results.
UOAs have shown measurable differences in insolubles. I see many with .03 and even higher. I've not had a Fram over .02, in any vehicle. I have had others at .03 and even .04. I think that is evidence. Proof? Hard to say. Evidence is all we've got to go by, and a UOA is better than a blind guess. Blackstone WILL tell you that and has told me that more than once. They'll flag it at or over 0.5.

There are also SAE standardized tests designed specifically to measure oil filter efficiency that do show a difference, sometimes marked. Some companies don't publish results for some, or all of their filters. We can all imagine why some don't publish them. I've called Wix and they've told me numbers on their basic filter from the SAE tests that are abysmal compared to premium filters. Will they ruin your engine? I doubt it. Can they shorten the life? Maybe. Why take the chance unless you know you'll sell it long before its an issue?

I believe some filters are better than others. I think there is clear evidence in a UOA if a filter is at least doing its job.

I've never steered anyone away from a Mopar filter, either, because I believe they are fine. I don't believe they are the best, though. That's just my humble opinion.
 

CarbonSteel

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UOAs have shown measurable differences in insolubles. I see many with .03 and even higher. I've not had a Fram over .02, in any vehicle. I have had others at .03 and even .04. I think that is evidence. Proof? Hard to say. Evidence is all we've got to go by, and a UOA is better than a blind guess. Blackstone WILL tell you that and has told me that more than once. They'll flag it at or over 0.5.
No argument from me that measureable differences with insolubles exist (many reasons for that--engine conditions, operating conditions, oil type, etc.) my argument is that the oil filter does not affect those differences and Blackstone has stated that very fact.
 

DanW

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No argument from me that measureable differences with insolubles exist (many reasons for that--engine conditions, operating conditions, oil type, etc.) my argument is that the oil filter does not affect those differences and Blackstone has stated that very fact.
Ok, show me the statement. That contradicts the quote I posted directly from their comments on my UOA. That indicate to me that they are making it clear that the filter absolutely does make a difference, even if there are other variables.

The very definition of insolubles, as I understand it, is that they are physical materials that do not dissolve in the oil. The primary and really only purpose of a filter would be to remove/reduce their presence in the oil.

If Blackstone says it doesn't, then not only does it contradict what they've said time and time again on UOA's, but it also defies logic. I've not yet seen that statement from them. I will contact them for clarification and will post their response.
 
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CarbonSteel

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Ok, show me the statement. That contradicts the quote I posted directly from their comments on my UOA. That indicate to me that they are making it clear that the filter absolutely does make a difference, even if there are other variables.

The very definition of insolubles, as I understand it, is that they are physical materials that do not dissolve in the oil. The primary and really only purpose of a filter would be to remove/reduce their presence in the oil.

If Blackstone says it doesn't, then not only does it contradict what they've said time and time again on UOA's, but it also defies logic. I've not yet seen that statement from them. I will contact them for clarification and will post their response.
Here is what they have said in the past:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2273624

Taken from that post (note the bold text):

Blackstone said:
Theoretically, switching to a better oil filter would reduce insolubles.
However, we don't normally see much difference between the various oil
filters that are on the market, so I couldn't tell you which one to try.
If
you wanted to switch to another brand, it certainly won't hurt anything.
Fortunately, your level of insolubles isn't really a problem. We don't get
too concerned about them unless we see 0.6% and higher. Beyond that, it's
possible to get into an oil starvation issue where the filter is too
clogged to work. That's when we'd see the excess wear. Hope that answers
your question. Let me know if you have any others and have a great weekend.

Blackstone Labs
------------
They also said:

Blackstone said:
Either the Fram or the more expensive filters should work just fine. We don't see a whole lot of difference between them.

Blackstone Labs
------------
So I would love to know what test they are using to tell you which filter is better than another as it relates to insoluble percentages and if they will contradict what they have said in the past, which is (more or less) filters have no impact on insolubles.
 

DanW

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Here is what they have said in the past:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2273624

Taken from that post (note the bold text):



They also said:



So I would love to know what test they are using to tell you which filter is better than another as it relates to insoluble percentages and if they will contradict what they have said in the past, which is (more or less) filters have no impact on insolubles.
Either you haven't understood my posts or I haven't communicated very well. I already shared what they told me. I never said they recommended a brand. What I said was that they said my filter was doing its job well and that the filter in that UOA was a Fram Ultra. I've also pointed to SAE standardized tests to give you an idea of which brands perform better. The SAE test results are published by the manufacturers, usually. If not, I've found that if you call or email them, they will share them with you. That's really the easiest way to figure out which filters are more effective at filtering particles of varying sizes.

The quotes you posted did not have Blackstone saying they can't tell if a filter is doing its job. It says nothing about other factors besides the filter, either.

I believe it is a fact that insolubles are controlled by the filter. The UOA can tell you at least if it is doing its job. If I see .02 from the Fram and then see the same thing from the M1, then I'll conclude that the M1 is not hurting anything. I think that is reasonable.

I've shared your previous statements with Blackstone, so I'll share their response when I receive it. I'm going to let them speak for themselves.
 

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Either you haven't understood my posts or I haven't communicated very well. I already shared what they told me. I never said they recommended a brand. What I said was that they said my filter was doing its job well and that the filter in that UOA was a Fram Ultra. I've also pointed to SAE standardized tests to give you an idea of which brands perform better. The SAE test results are published by the manufacturers, usually. If not, I've found that if you call or email them, they will share them with you. That's really the easiest way to figure out which filters are more effective at filtering particles of varying sizes.

The quotes you posted did not have Blackstone saying they can't tell if a filter is doing its job. It says nothing about other factors besides the filter, either.

I believe it is a fact that insolubles are controlled by the filter. The UOA can tell you at least if it is doing its job. If I see .02 from the Fram and then see the same thing from the M1, then I'll conclude that the M1 is not hurting anything. I think that is reasonable.

I've shared your previous statements with Blackstone, so I'll share their response when I receive it. I'm going to let them speak for themselves.
The quotes I posted have Blackstone stating they cannot tell a difference with insolubles between filter brands and that goes to the heart of what we are discussing.

Here is 155,000 miles worth of Blackstone UOAs on the same vehicle. Most of them with Motorcraft FL-820s filters which, according to Amsoil's filter test (https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2202.pdf) using ISO4548-12, has an efficiency of 93.7% @ 20um versus a FRAM Ultra which is 99.9% @ 20um.

Note the variation of the insoluable percentages and in particular those of the FRAM versus the Motorcraft right next to it. The less efficient filter had less insolubles--which would be in direct contradiction to what one would expect. There are also variations between the same filter brand and same oil type and same filter brand and different oil type. This gives credence to why Blackstone is stating they see little difference between filter brands relating to insolubles.


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DanW

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We'll see what Blackstone says. I asked them directly and gave them your quote: "Blackstone will tell you that no filter will impact insolubles so you will not see a difference." If they back that up, then the analysis they give on their reports seems inconsistent at best and contradictory at worst.

I'm not expecting a difference, but if I run this M1 filter and insolubles are higher, then I'd take that as evidence that the Fram is better. Conclusive? Maybe not, but we rarely get data that is absolutely conclusive, so you go with what you've got and make decisions.
 
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CarbonSteel

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We'll see what Blackstone says. I asked them directly and gave them your quote: "Blackstone will tell you that no filter will impact insolubles so you will not see a difference." If they back that up, then the analysis they give on their reports seems inconsistent at best and contradictory at worst.
It will be interesting to say the least. For me, the data points I provided tell me what I need to know-- too many variables to find a silver bullet and when one brand filter can show variations like this a more accurate test regime is needed to truly discern any differences.
 

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Here it is:

"Hi Dan,


The oil filter does make a difference in insolubles. Insolubles are the solids that form when the oil is used and exposed to heat. As the oil oxidizes and insolubles form, the oil filter’s job is to remove those solids from the system.


If an oil filter is not functioning properly, or if the oil is oxidizing faster than it should (due to a problem or some other factor that the filter can’t keep up with), insolubles will go up.


Oil filters don’t always need to be changed with every oil change. Often a person can change the filter every other oil change (sometimes even less) and still get a good insolubles reading. That doesn’t mean the filter isn’t doing anything – it just means the filter is keeping solids under control and the oil isn’t oxidizing very quickly.


Sometimes an engine can have a problem with sludge that will not be reflected in the insolubles level, and the filter cannot always remove sludge from the system like it does with other oxidized solids. The problem with sludge is that it sticks to the oil channels and sides of the pan, so it’s not circulating through the system and does not get removed by the oil filter. Sludge is a problem that oil analysis does not always see.


Hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any other questions.


Kristin Huff

Blackstone Labs"

This was a response to your original quote. She didn't say it can detect one brand to another, but she did say filters matter, so that may give us some common ground.

An interesting note is about oil oxidizing. It sounds to me like an oil that is not oxidizing as quickly won't cause much trouble for even the least efficient filter. I've been running Mobil 1 EP/AP, which have significant PAO in the base stock. It is known for being much more resistant to oxidizing (thus the 15k to 20k rating), so that may be one factor in the low insolubles number. I also ran Pennzoil Ultra Platinum. I suspect it's GTL base stocks may also be pretty resistant, especially for sub 10k mile runs.

One thing I appreciate about Blackstone, and Kristin in particular is that they have always responded to my questions VERY quickly. That's darned good CS.
 

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It will be interesting to say the least. For me, the data points I provided tell me what I need to know-- too many variables to find a silver bullet and when one brand filter can show variations like this a more accurate test regime is needed to truly discern any differences.
I agree with you, and I don't look at a filter as a silver bullet. However, I'll run what I think is the best filter and best oil, and I'll practice driving habits that are helpful to engine life, too, like driving gently until the oil reaches full temp. I think combining what you think is best along with best practices will ultimately lead to a long engine life. In fact, some practices could even cover for weak links in the chain.

I know this. If you were selling a used car, I'd be confident that what you are doing and that the thought you put into it would make the car a safe bet and I'd be more inclined to buy it, knowing that.
 

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Here it is:

"Hi Dan,


The oil filter does make a difference in insolubles. Insolubles are the solids that form when the oil is used and exposed to heat. As the oil oxidizes and insolubles form, the oil filter’s job is to remove those solids from the system.


If an oil filter is not functioning properly, or if the oil is oxidizing faster than it should (due to a problem or some other factor that the filter can’t keep up with), insolubles will go up.


Oil filters don’t always need to be changed with every oil change. Often a person can change the filter every other oil change (sometimes even less) and still get a good insolubles reading. That doesn’t mean the filter isn’t doing anything – it just means the filter is keeping solids under control and the oil isn’t oxidizing very quickly.


Sometimes an engine can have a problem with sludge that will not be reflected in the insolubles level, and the filter cannot always remove sludge from the system like it does with other oxidized solids. The problem with sludge is that it sticks to the oil channels and sides of the pan, so it’s not circulating through the system and does not get removed by the oil filter. Sludge is a problem that oil analysis does not always see.


Hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any other questions.


Kristin Huff

Blackstone Labs"

This was a response to your original quote. She didn't say it can detect one brand to another, but she did say filters matter, so that may give us some common ground.

An interesting note is about oil oxidizing. It sounds to me like an oil that is not oxidizing won't cause much trouble for even the least efficient filter. I've been running Mobil 1 EP/AP, which have significant PAO in the base stock. It is known for being much more resistant to oxidizing. I also ran Pennzoil Ultra Platinum. I suspect it's GTL base may also be pretty resistant, especially for sub 10k mile runs.

One thing I appreciate about Blackstone, and Kristin in particular is that they have always responded to my questions VERY quickly. That's darned good CS.
A working filter versus a non-working or sludged filter matters, but nothing there quantifies that one filter can change the insoluble percentage over another. It does not explain how a lesser efficient filter can have a better insoluble report and it semi-contradicts what they said earlier on BITOG.
 

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A working filter versus a non-working or sludged filter matters, but nothing there quantifies that one filter can change the insoluble percentage over another. It does not explain how a lesser efficient filter can have a better insoluble report and it semi-contradicts what they said earlier on BITOG.
I agree, but it also doesn't discount it.

I do agree with you, though, that there are other variables at play. A great filter with lesser oil may show higher insolubles due to earlier oxidation, whereas high performance oil combined with a cheap inefficient filter may show the opposite.

As for me, I've run enough of the same oil to lessen it as a variable. I'm on my 3rd run of M1 AP, and 1 run of EP. I think the base stocks in the two are likely to be close, with both having higher levels of PAO.

Blackstone's position also may evolve as they learn more or gain more data over the years. It could also boil down to who you talk to there. One analyst may put more stock in a data point than another. (Lol, yet another variable.)
 
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