Genesis Offroad Double Battery and ESS 6 Cycle Limit - Anyone with issues?

[JimLee]

I'm glad you weighed in on this thread as the discussion has quicly become even more interesting and informative (to me anyway). I'm happy to see Jerry post as he's been a great source of information including all the ESS battery threads.

You bring up an interesting point regarding charging the Odyssey batteries using a trickle charger. I haven't used AGM batteries before so I'd like to understand this as well. I looked at Odyssey's information on the subject and it does discuss using a charger but I don't know if/when it will be necessary to do that. I read through their info
https://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-TM-002_1214.pdf and there appears to be a number of issues related to this subject including: parasitic loss, how long the battery is sitting without receiving a charge and the amount of charge the battery gets when the vehicle is running.

Per the above link, "Regardless of the application, it is important to make sure your battery does not have a parasitic load; if there is a slow drain, connect the battery to a foat (sic) (trickle) charger that puts out between 13.5V and 13.8V at the battery terminals."

I'd like to learn more about this and if the charger is needed to help maximize the battery's life.

Unfortunately modern vehicles always have parasitic loss, unless you use a physical disconnect something is always drawing on your battery system. That's where we start losing money and battery life on day one. The constant drain and recharge cycle on our batteries starts wearing them immediately. As I posted above I don't use a trickle charger as the amps they put out are insufficient to properly charge these batteries, alot of them also don't put out 13.5-13.8V. You can use one to compensate for parasitic loss but as Odyssey states the battery must be fully charged before hooking up one of these chargers. To do it 100% right we should be topping off our batteries every day and then hooking up a trickle charger when we are not driving the vehicle, I don't know about you but that is too much work for me. I have worked in aviation electronics on military aircraft for over thirty years and all of the aircraft I have worked on have batteries, some as emergency backups that hardly ever get used and some that get used to power things every flight along with some batteries robust enough to crank over a jet engine. I have maintained numerous types of batteries and charging systems (Wet, dry, AGM, lithium Ion) and the one thing that matters the most across all those battery categories for livelihood is a periodic "recondition" cycle. The time between these recondition cycles varies depending on the type of battery and normal usage but on all of them the difference in amp hour capacity after the cycle has completed is always higher. When a batt fails to recondition to a higher amp hour rating it is considered worn out and is condemned. I use the Odyssey OBC-20A charger at home once a week or after anytime I go offroading and have a lot of electrical accessory usage. The Odyssey chargers have a "condition" cycle where the batts are held at 14.7 volts for several hours. In my experience this is the single most important thing you can do to help extend the life of your batteries, other than topping them off every day and keeping them on a trickle charger every time you are not driving the vehicle, which I have already determined is too much effort for me. In the long run we are just fighting time, as all batteries will degrade. After doing a lot of research and using knowledge that I posses from experience I figured out the best system for me (or at least what I am willing to do) and my usage of a dual battery setup. If in the future I see that other people are getting significantly more battery life than me I may rethink my plan.

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[Jebiruph]

Moving the IBS cable is just a waste of time. The Jeep doesn't see two batteries when they are connected it sees one giant battery that either needs charging or doesn't.

You can't have ESS without an IBS. The ESS system relies on the IBS to provide accurate information on the health of the cranking battery to determine if the cranking battery can power a restart before ESS is enbled. The current guidance from Genesis has the IBS measuring the current into and out of the non-cranking battery, but it's reading the voltage off of the cranking battery (see post #78 for more on this). Since the IBS battery status reports apply to the wrong (non-cranking) battery, it's possible that ESS could be activated with a bad cranking battery.

I do not agree with your statement that moving the IBS (so that it will accurately report the health of to the cranking battery to the ESS system) is a waste of time.

 

[JimLee]

You can't have ESS without an IBS. The ESS system relies on the IBS to provide accurate information on the health of the cranking battery to determine if the cranking battery can power a restart before ESS is enbled. The current guidance from Genesis has the IBS measuring the current into and out of the non-cranking battery, but it's reading the voltage off of the cranking battery (see post #78 for more on this). Since the IBS battery status reports apply to the wrong (non-cranking) battery, it's possible that ESS could be activated with a bad cranking battery.

I do not agree with your statement that moving the IBS (so that it will accurately report the health of to the cranking battery to the ESS system) is a waste of time.

I agree with your disagreement. I wasnt thinking about ESS although I know this thread started based on ESS issues and has spun off into other concerns such as charging and parasitic amp draw. I haven't researched ESS but ill take your word for it as I know you have. So let me rephrase my original. I think moving the IBS is a waste of time if you have permanently disabled the ESS system as I have. ESS has no place on an off-road vehicle as far as im concerned.

 

[unsavory]

I agree with your disagreement. I wasnt thinking about ESS although I know this thread started based on ESS issues and has spun off into other concerns such as charging and parasitic amp draw. I haven't researched ESS but ill take your word for it as I know you have. So let me rephrase my original. I think moving the IBS is a waste of time if you have permanently disabled the ESS system as I have. ESS has no place on an off-road vehicle as far as im concerned.

I still disagree with your agreement to his disagreement. I've already given a reason in this thread why it does in fact matter if the IBS is on the wrong battery.

Your assumption that the batteries are always connected together within 5 minutes of starting the vehicle is wrong. You stated that it is important to occasionally properly charge your Odyssey batteries with a good charger since your vehicle cannot properly do this, something I agree with.

Well if your accessory battery is properly charged (ie: measures 12.84 resting volts), and your vehicle is started, the IBS will measure the accessory battery voltage at 12.84 volts since the two batteries are disconnected. And your vehicle will drop its alternator output down below 13 volts, because it thinks your battery is already fully charged. This means that your two batteries will not be reconnected, because the IBS will always measure 12.84 volts from the accessory battery, and the Genesis system doesn't connect the two batteries together until voltage is held at 13.2 for over 5 minutes.

I've played with this a lot, and this was always the result. I once drove around for a full week with both batteries never reconnecting, and the IBS measuring a constant 12.84 volts from the accessory battery. Needless to say, my cranking battery was not getting properly charged since the alternator never went above 12.9 volts.

By the way, 12.7 volts is more like 10% discharged according to the Odyssey technical manual. Not 5%.

I would also like to point out that I am not bashing the Genesis system at all. I'm using it with what I consider a very minor modification to suit my own purposes. Any information I have presented in this thread is purely for discovery purposes, and sharing my findings so that others may benefit and make informed decisions on their own.

 

[vavaroutsos]

All good questions!
As for the current draw, the solenoid does use a little power to keep it engaged, but it's not a lot. The exact amount varies, but somewhere around 100-300 milliamp range would be typical. If you're using a multimeter to check current draw and you're seeing 1 full amp, then I'd think that may be due to other systems still active. After you turn off the engine and shut the doors, there's several electrical systems still active in the vehicle for a few minutes. Try checking again after the doors have been closed for at least several minutes, or longer. If you're sure that's not the culprit, then try unplugging the connector from the blue control box while you are watching your meter. If it drops from 1 amp to 850 milliamps, then you'll know the solenoid was using about 150 milliamps. That would still indicate something else is using a lot of power. With nothing on, you should expect to see somewhere around 30-50, perhaps as high as 100 milliamps for things like your radio presets, security system, keyless entry remote, etc.

We have had plenty of customers call us to ask a question such as why the solenoid is hot, even after the engine is turned off overnight, even a year or more after they bought the kit. In other words, the isolator draw wasn't enough to drop it below the 12.7v threshold even overnight.

The IBS sensor is attached to the factory negative post clamp. When we drop 2 batteries into our tray, there is no way to pull the factory negative post clamp all the way over to the cranking battery's negative post. There's almost no slack on it at all. This is fine though, because having your positive on the cranking battery and negative on the aux battery is the most efficient way to charge 2 batteries in parallel.Once the batteries are connected together through the solenoid, they will operate like one big battery anyway. So even if you went through the trouble to move the IBS sensor over to the crank battery's negative post, yeah it will read from that battery for 2 minutes, but once they get connected together, it just sees one big battery anyway, so I don't see any benefit in moving it. It's fine where it's at.

A latching relay (such as those from Gigavac) could be used to eliminate the solenoid current draw. A FET type solid state battery combiner (like those from Victron) could also reduce the wasted power (though I prefer a latching relay).

 

[vavaroutsos]

I have heard this claim a few times over the years - that a Jeep's smart alternator can't properly charge an Odyssey battery, but it really doesn't make logical sense, and I have not seen any actual evidence to support this claim. Most new vehicles have a smart alternator, which varies its output based on what the battery needs. If this claim were true, why would anyone put an Odyssey battery (or any other AGM battery) into any vehicle?

The JL's IBS (intelligent battery sensor) on the negative post clamp provides additional data to the charging system, including real time temperature, voltage levels, and current draw measurements, as well as additional data that is calculated over time, such as state of charge, state of health, and state of function. All this data helps the charging system adjust its output for what the batteries need. So if it detects the battery is low, it will increase its output to help charge them up. It considers the batteries fully charged at 12.8v - just like Odyssey says. If it detects the battery is full, it will back off its output. There's no need to blast 100 amps into the battery if it's already full. Remember - while the engine is running, the vehicle is powered by the alternator, not from the battery. If the charging system turns down the output, and reduces the voltage to 13.5 or 13.3 or whatever, that is not going to 'self discharge' the batteries. It is correct that Odyssey (and other AGM batteries) recommends a fairly high float charge, but what is a float charge for? It's for long term storage of a battery that's not being used, to help avoid sulfation. A battery in your daily driver does not need to be 'float charged' every day, because you're actively using it.

Let's dive a little deeper into a scenario with our kit.

Let's say you are driving on a road trip to a camp site. While you're driving, our system will link the batteries together and they will both be charging while you drive.

You get to camp, turn off the engine, and you still have a fridge in the back (plugged into our dedicated power outlet running off our bus bars so you don't drain the cranking battery), you have your bumper lights on to light up camp, maybe you run the air compressor a little, etc. All that stuff will run from both batteries until they hit 12.7v, then they'll be separated and the accessories run from the second battery for as long as it will last.

After a couple days, you pack up, crank up, and drive an hour or two home. Initially, your cranking battery should still be close to 12.7, maybe a little lower if you were listening to the radio, opening doors several times, etc. Let's say it's at 12.6. The alternator will begin charging that crank battery up at whatever output it puts out normally to help charge it back up.

When our smart isolator sees that one above 13.2v for 2 minutes, it will link the batteries together in parallel. Let's say you drained the second battery down to like 11.8 - getting low, but the fridge is still running so you're happy. As soon as you connect ANY batteries together in parallel, they will want to approximately average themselves out because they will operate like one big battery. So you have a fairly full one connected to a low battery, and they average out somewhere in the middle - 12.3ish.

The little IBS sensor will detect a sudden drop in voltage and state of charge, and the alternator will increase its output to help charge them up.

The alternator can, and will, charge the batteries, but that's not its main job. Remember its main job is to power the vehicle while it's running.
If you have drained your battery down low, it is always a good idea to put a quality charger on there to help top it off and recondition it. This will keep it at peak performance and help extend its lifespan. Just like if you use your Jeep for delivering the mail, you should probably change your oil more often. If the battery is deeply discharged (the whole point of buying an Odyssey or other AGM) then driving an hour or two home is not enough time to charge it back up.

The next day you drive 10-30 minutes to work, even all week long, it's still probably not enough to charge it back up. Again, that's why if you really want to keep your AGM battery at peak performance, then throw a charger on there when you get home after draining it down.

In addition, I like to put a charger on mine whenever I change the oil, just as a periodic maintenance thing.

How do you hook up a charger to our dual battery system then? Well, good timing! Here's a new video I just posted about that topic. I hope this helps!

As far as smart alternators not adequately charging accessory batteries, it's not that they can't, it's that they are programmed not to. Most modern vehicles with smart alternators are trying to meeting strict CAFE requirements. In order to do this, they don't fully charge the battery during normal driving as the alternator load reduces MPG. When you hit the brakes, the alternator is allowed to charge at a higher voltage. So it's converting some of that braking energy to charge the battery. That works fine for a starter battery, but it doesn't keep an accessory battery fully charged like most people want.

One solution to the above problem is to use a DC converter type battery to battery charger (like those from Redarc or Sterling) to charge the accessory battery. It will load the alternator and boost the voltage to the level required to fully charge the accessory battery. Another option is to ad a second alternator (like those from Balmar) that can be programmed with a suitable charge curve for the accessory battery chemistry.

 

[JimLee]

I still disagree with your agreement to his disagreement. I've already given a reason in this thread why it does in fact matter if the IBS is on the wrong battery.

Your assumption that the batteries are always connected together within 5 minutes of starting the vehicle is wrong. You stated that it is important to occasionally properly charge your Odyssey batteries with a good charger since your vehicle cannot properly do this, something I agree with.

Well if your accessory battery is properly charged (ie: measures 12.84 resting volts), and your vehicle is started, the IBS will measure the accessory battery voltage at 12.84 volts since the two batteries are disconnected. And your vehicle will drop its alternator output down below 13 volts, because it thinks your battery is already fully charged. This means that your two batteries will not be reconnected, because the IBS will always measure 12.84 volts from the accessory battery, and the Genesis system doesn't connect the two batteries together until voltage is held at 13.2 for over 5 minutes.

I've played with this a lot, and this was always the result. I once drove around for a full week with both batteries never reconnecting, and the IBS measuring a constant 12.84 volts from the accessory battery. Needless to say, my cranking battery was not getting properly charged since the alternator never went above 12.9 volts.

By the way, 12.7 volts is more like 10% discharged according to the Odyssey technical manual. Not 5%.

I would also like to point out that I am not bashing the Genesis system at all. I'm using it with what I consider a very minor modification to suit my own purposes. Any information I have presented in this thread is purely for discovery purposes, and sharing my findings so that others may benefit and make informed decisions on their own.

When your batteries are connected, they are going to have the same level of charge, until they disconnect at 12.7V. How exactly are you getting 12.84V on you accessory battery and being disconnected? Unless you are disconnecting everything and charging one batt separately I don't see this as possible.

By the way, you claimed 30% in a previous post. So which is it?

 

[WranglerAz]

For my JLUR, which frequently has the ESS charging message, since I don't drive enough to charge it, would getting the Optima 1200 Performance Battery Charger be better (additional features) than just getting a battery tender?

 

[DadJokes]

Anyone happen to know the stock battery group size?

 

[thx1137]

Sorry for the delay, I've been a little busy lately. Here is how I wired it all up.

In this photo, you will note that the factory negative cable is actually connected to the cranking battery instead of the accessory battery:

I flipped the provided negative cable in the Genesis system around, so it could connect to the accessory battery:

I used this automotive relay to tap into the blue wire that runs to the Genesis solenoid. I used this relay that I ordered from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072QXDZRD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I used a fuse tap and tapped into the passenger heated seat fuse, which is ignition switched. You must use a Micro2 fuse tap! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077PBXGKQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I attached the black solenoid wire to the vehicle chassis ground.

View showing how it's tapped into Genesis solenoid:

Another angle of the factory negative with the IBS sensor and where I mounted the solenoid:

Here is a complete list of the parts I used for the job:

• Micro2 Fuse Tap: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077PBXGKQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
• 16 guage automotive wire: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CMYVF3J/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
• 12 volt automotive Solenoid: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072QXDZRD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
• I also used some butt crimp connectors and a terminal ring connector for the solenoid ground wire.
• Electrical shrink wrap
• Paint on electrical tape
• Electrical crimping tool

I've found a better solution to the Genesis JL dual battery drain issue/feature... Since this thread was about ESS I've made a separate thread here..

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/genesis-jl-dual-agm-battery-discharging-mod.57919/


As for the ESS problem... I consider the entire ESS system an abomination that should not exist in a Jeep.. Guessing it was forced onto us by California libtard laws, increasing the price of the Jeep and lowering it's reliably at the same time... The ESS system killed my main battery and left me stranded at 11pm in the middle of a national forest and this is why I purchased the dual battery system and a Taser to disable ESS properly. The POS ESS system has caused me a huge, HUGE waste of time and money!

Following the user unsavory, I have moved the IBS to the main battery. After 2 hard to find yet simple mods, I'm now happy overall with the Genesis system, however in retrospect if I did it all again, I might have just replaced the main battery, ripped out the hidden secondary battery and shorted the battery lines together and forgo the aux battery feature.

 

[WranglerAz]

Today I see the Genesis web page states " Odyssey Extreme series 25-PC1400 has been discontinued as of July 2020 ", instead they offer the Full River FT750-25 battery. I have never heard of this battery. Is anyone in this thread is using it or heard if it?

 

[Abramovich]

Today I see the Genesis web page states " Odyssey Extreme series 25-PC1400 has been discontinued as of July 2020 ", instead they offer the Full River FT750-25 battery. I have never heard of this battery. Is anyone in this thread is using it or heard if it?

We've used the Fullriver AGM batteries at work for years now. Great quality, I have no qualms about using these in my Wrangler.

 

[lembowski]

Today I see the Genesis web page states " Odyssey Extreme series 25-PC1400 has been discontinued as of July 2020 ", instead they offer the Full River FT750-25 battery. I have never heard of this battery. Is anyone in this thread is using it or heard if it?

We use them in our forklifts for a few years now. I just ordered the Genesis kit last week with the Full River batteries. I called Odyssey and their Corp offices had no clue when the group 25 performance series would be available. I’ll have my install done by Wednesday next week and will post some pictures.

 

[Gorilla57]

We use them in our forklifts for a few years now. I just ordered the Genesis kit last week with the Full River batteries. I called Odyssey and their Corp offices had no clue when the group 25 performance series would be available. I’ll have my install done by Wednesday next week and will post some pictures.

Well, I sure hope Odyssey re-starts making the group 25. Would hate to have one of mine go bad and they won’t have a replacement for it under warranty.

 

[lembowski]

Well, I sure hope Odyssey re-starts making the group 25. Would hate to have one of mine go bad and they won’t have a replacement for it under warranty.

They are but it won’t be the Extreme series it will be the Performance series which doesn’t appear to be as good. I would imagine they stock piled a few for warranty issues.

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