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Gas milage and drivability of 4.10 Rubicon gearing vs 3.45 Sport gearing

The_Phew

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I have yet to find any "good" debt since the real estate boom in California during the late 70's early 80's.

If you have any leads, pm me! :like:
The S&P 500 has averaged about 10% cumulative annual growth rate. The only reason to lock in ~2.5% annual returns (effectively what you are doing when you pay cash for a vehicle instead of financing) instead of unlocking the potential for ~10% returns is if your investment horizon is less than a decade or so (i.e. looming retirement).

Many people have a psychological aversion to debt, but corporations and most wealthy people actually have a lot of 'cheap' debt. It's the lowest-risk way to free up capital for more lucrative investments.
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crash13

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-More rolling resistance/frontal area from wider tires
Not entirely sure this is the case. In the cycling world, pros (and avid racers like me) have gone from 21mm tyres to 23mm and even 25mm tyres in recent years as they have proven to have much less rolling resistance. And it's a big deal on a bike when you are pushing the pedals yourself for a 100 miles ;)
Again, don't claim to be car tyre engineer but thought I'd toss that in. I'm still likely getting the Rubicon....
 

The_Phew

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Not entirely sure this is the case. In the cycling world, pros (and avid racers like me) have gone from 21mm tyres to 23mm and even 25mm tyres in recent years as they have proven to have much less rolling resistance. And it's a big deal on a bike when you are pushing the pedals yourself for a 100 miles ;)
Again, don't claim to be car tyre engineer but thought I'd toss that in. I'm still likely getting the Rubicon....
Yeah, rolling resistance is a complicated thing; it's not just the friction between tire and road (which goes up directly with section width). Things like sidewall/tread deformation are also a source of loss, and those can go down with a wider section. But bigger/heavier tires have been empirically proven to negatively impact car fuel economy, that's for sure.
 

CantThinkOfAHandle

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That would be neat, but I've not read anywhere that it is of that design.
It appears that dual-clutch transmissions are falling out of favor. They're less reliable than single-clutch designs, and the latter has matched them in performance.
 

CantThinkOfAHandle

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That equation is given the same tire diameter, right? The 33's need to be factored in. The 3.45 set up includes smaller diameter tires.
I mean, all else being equal, assume same size tires, assume the engine is identically efficient at all RPMs (I realize it's not), etc., it's not true that downshifting and revving higher to maintain the same speed increases fuel consumption. The Rubicon doesn't burn 19% more fuel because of the different axle ratio. Correct, or am I wrong?
 

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Nate

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It appears that dual-clutch transmissions are falling out of favor. They're less reliable than single-clutch designs, and the latter has matched them in performance.
Can’t say that’s entirely accurate. Dual clutch systems does not have a torque converter, so it’s inherently more efficient by design. VAG has a lot of experience with it so I’m a bit biased towards theirs, but I do see a lot of other companies shying away from because they cannot get theirs to operate properly and customers are not happy.

I’ve raced a lot of VAG cars equipped with DSG, the only failures I’ve seen are from poor drivers or overly modified engine (hp/tq) transmission combinations. But that goes with anything out there.
 
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WXman

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Depends on the engine and load. On my YJ, I gained 5 miles per gallon when I swapped the factory 4.10s out in favor of 4.88s. I wouldn't have believed it unless I hand calculated it myself. But it went from 13 MPGs to 18 MPGs instantly. Why? Because the anemic 2.5L engine was slaving to move the Jeep around on 33" tires with 4.10 gears. The 4.88s allowed the engine to work less to get up to speed and maintain speed once there.

On the modern JL, you'll never see a 5 MPG difference between gear ratios but you may very well see a 1-2 MPG difference if you keep the engine happy with deeper gearing. The ONLY time numerically lower axle ratios save fuel is if you live in Kansas and you never drive on hills.
 

Nate

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The S&P 500 has averaged about 10% cumulative annual growth rate. The only reason to lock in ~2.5% annual returns (effectively what you are doing when you pay cash for a vehicle instead of financing) instead of unlocking the potential for ~10% returns is if your investment horizon is less than a decade or so (i.e. looming retirement).

Many people have a psychological aversion to debt, but corporations and most wealthy people actually have a lot of 'cheap' debt. It's the lowest-risk way to free up capital for more lucrative investments.
Great post.

I think a lot of people don’t have the confidence in the market to make that kind of decision or if the average Joe sees the benefit of doing so. But generally these are the same people who limit themselves to only putting in 3% into their 401K when 10% yields much better.
 

CantThinkOfAHandle

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Can’t say that’s entirely accurate. Dual clutch systems does not have a torque converter, so it’s inherently more efficient by design.

I’ve raced a lot of VAG cars equipped with DSG, the only failures I’ve seen are from poor drivers or overly modified engine (hp/tq) transmission combinations. But that goes with anything out there.
I know nothing about this directly, but it's easy to find recent articles saying DCTs are going out of fashion. I referenced them here for those who might have been hoping the JL's new auto had this design.

My BMW wagon has a ZF 8HP, and I don't even notice when it shifts.
 

Nate

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I know nothing about this directly, but it's easy to find recent articles saying DCTs are going out of fashion. I referenced them here for those who might have been hoping the JL's new auto had this design.

My BMW wagon has a ZF 8HP, and I don't even notice when it shifts.
I edited the post to reflect that. But yes there are a lot of unhappy customers from poorly executed DSG transmissions (such as Ford) IF those bugs were worked out I’m sure that would change. DSG is not a cheap technology to put in mass produced vehicles. Me personally, if it’s not a racing application, put a single in there and call it a day. No sense in over complicating things.
 

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The_Phew

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I think a lot of people don’t have the confidence in the market to make that kind of decision or if the average Joe sees the benefit of doing so. But generally these are the same people who limit themselves to only putting in 3% into their 401K when 10% yields much better.
The concept that is missing for a lot of people re: 'confidence in the market' is that confidence alone isn't a meaningful metric; what matters is 'confidence+time horizon'. Am I confident that the S&P 500 will go up 6% or more this year? No, I wouldn't bet a dime on that outcome. Am I confident that the S&P 500 will return 6%+ annualized over the next 15 years? Yes, I am, and I 'bet' most of my assets on that outcome.

History is on my side; the worst 15-year stretch for the S&P 500 of my lifetime was 2000-2015; this time period included the dot-com bubble bursting, 9/11, the financial crisis, housing bubble bursting, near-perpetual war, etc. Yet, the S&P CAGR over this time was 5.78% (including dividends). Basically the worst-possible scenario for the stock market over this time frame was STILL over twice the effective returns of paying cash for a vehicle (instead of financing at current interest rates). Obviously when auto loans were 8%, it was a different story, but auto loans are CHEAP now if you have good credit. My current loan is 1.99% for 5 years (PenFed).

Are there scenarios where stocks become worthless? Yup; all manner of apocalypses. But in any scenario where stocks become worthless, money in general is equally worthless; you'd rather have water, food, fuel, ammo (and a Jeep!) in these scenarios. So a Wrangler would just be my portfolio's hedge against a zombie apocalypse :jk::rock:
 
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Artec

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We averaged 19mpg driving our JLUR over a 1600 mile trip from the Dealer in Detroit Michigan to our location in Salt Lake City Utah .
 

JHJLUR

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We averaged 19mpg driving our JLUR over a 1600 mile trip from the Dealer in Detroit Michigan to our location in Salt Lake City Utah .
Not bad
 

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It appears that dual-clutch transmissions are falling out of favor. They're less reliable than single-clutch designs, and the latter has matched them in performance.
I know nothing about this directly, but it's easy to find recent articles saying DCTs are going out of fashion. I referenced them here for those who might have been hoping the JL's new auto had this design.

My BMW wagon has a ZF 8HP, and I don't even notice when it shifts.
Don't want to nitpick, but you're mixing terminology and it may be confusing to some. The ZF 8-speed in your BMW is a conventional automatic with a planetary gearset and a fluid-based torque converter (it does not contain a friction-based clutch). The same as the automatic offered in the JL.

DCT's employ constant-mesh gearsets (similar to a manual transmission) and then 2 wet (or dry) friction clutches. There were single-clutch semiautomatic transmissions in the early 2000's (mostly in exotics and high-performance vehicles), but these have since fallen out of favor.

For off-pavement purposes, I find it nice to have a torque converter to soak up driveline shock from jumpy throttle application. That's the one thing I don't like about driving manual Jeeps on faster washboard dirt roads.
 

Karl_in_Chicago

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The concept that is missing for a lot of people re: 'confidence in the market' is that confidence alone isn't a meaningful metric; what matters is 'confidence+time horizon'. Am I confident that the S&P 500 will go up 6% or more this year? No, I wouldn't bet a dime on that outcome. Am I confident that the S&P 500 will return 6%+ annualized over the next 15 years? Yes, I am, and I 'bet' most of my assets on that outcome.

History is on my side; the worst 15-year stretch for the S&P 500 of my lifetime was 2000-2015; this time period included the dot-com bubble bursting, 9/11, the financial crisis, housing bubble bursting, near-perpetual war, etc. Yet, the S&P CAGR over this time was 5.78% (including dividends). Basically the worst-possible scenario for the stock market over this time frame was STILL over twice the effective returns of paying cash for a vehicle (instead of financing at current interest rates). Obviously when auto loans were 8%, it was a different story, but auto loans are CHEAP now if you have good credit. My current loan is 1.99% for 5 years (PenFed).

Are there scenarios where stocks become worthless? Yup; all manner of apocalypses. But in any scenario where stocks become worthless, money in general is equally worthless; you'd rather have water, food, fuel, ammo (and a Jeep!) in these scenarios. So a Wrangler would just be my portfolio's hedge against a zombie apocalypse :jk::rock:
But what kind of mileage did you get?
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