First Oil Change: How Many Miles/Oil Preference?

nerubi

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Sounds like some retentive people. If you live in California you won't be able to change your oil at these old-time rules. They are trying to get people to quit changing their oil so often because of the billions of barrels of oil wasted each year. If that doesn't work, being California, they will legislate it because it is almost as bad as plastic straws. Unless you drive a cab or travel all your time in the desert go by the manufacturer recommendation. They know better than anyone and until a couple of months ago you could buy a lifetime warranty so they would have to pay if they made bad recommendations. Engines are a lot different now compared to 30 years or more ago. They don't need to change as much, according to California CARB, plus oil is a lot better now. Plus they said the Jiffy Lube campaign of 3,500 miles a year is misleading and convincing too many people to waste oil.
Personally I use bunker oil and change every 12 months. Haven't lost an engine yet. Plus I have never had a car long enough to worry about it. In my early days when it came time to change the oil I just took it in and traded for a new car.
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DanW

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So here we go. Since some people won't believe anything they can't see with pictures. :giggle: Much like the Pentastar in the Jeeps, my other car has an engine that was used for many model years and originally was spec'd with a 30-weight oil. Then, seemingly out of the blue, they changed the spec. to a 20-weight with no changes to the engine. Concerned about wear, enthusiasts pressed an engineer who worked on that powertrain team about why the change was made, and he confirmed that it was purely a fuel economy/emissions move and that he himself still would use a 30-weight in his own car for longevity.

So, after mine had been run on the 20-weight for a very long time I looked at oil analysis to see where the metals were running. Obviously, metals are indicative of wear. On 3-5-2018 I switched to a 30-weight oil of the same brand, just the higher viscosity. Immediately on the very next oil change 9-15-2018 the wear metals decreased significantly, particularly iron and copper. My viscosity number was a tad low, indicating that there was probably still some of the old 20-weight crap still in the engine. So, on this next oil change coming up March 2019, I should see wear metals decrease even more. Clearly, the engine is wearing less on the higher viscosity.

Really, this is going on across the board with all aspects of a Jeep. Notice the new Dana axles, which are specifying a 75w90 fluid when they always used a 140 in the past. Or the way the transmissions are no longer using a universal fluid type, instead relying on a low-friction formula. The goal of the automaker is to put up the very best MPG numbers they can in EPA testing because it saves them money. The goal of the end user is not the same. For most of us, what we want is protection for our vital driveline parts, which is why 5W30 is the way to go once warranty is up.

Again, for those of you who struggle with reading comprehension, I am not saying that your engine is going to die on 0W20. What I'm saying is that a higher viscosity oil is going to provide a better barrier and therefore give your engine a higher probability of lasting longer.

ScreenHunter_128 Jan. 04 19.08.jpg


5W30.jpg
This proves nothing. How many miles are on your JL? My wear metals trended downard, too, except I used the same 0w20, so how do you explain that? I can tell you. The engine is breaking-in, and it will do that for a long time. You likely would have experienced the same thing continuing with 0w20, only you left a bunch of info out on your Blackstone report, starting with miles on the unit and miles on the oil. S, another thing you could have done (I'm not saying you did, but just that you could have) is to run a shorter OCI this time, which would also result in lower wear metals.

So, the best I can tell you is that anyone drawing a conclusion from this is doing so on faith, not on the strength of evidence you've provided.

You really can't make a good comparison from oil change to oil change until you get about 70k or 80k on the engine and then run identical oil change intervals. The other variable is driving pattern.

I'd also like to hear your source on what was and wasn't changed in the Pentastar. You said the lower end wasn't changed, but how do you know? Even if true, the tolerences on the heads and valvetrain may be tighter, which is one of the two big reasons for thinner oil (the other being, yes, fuel economy.)

I doubt you'll hurt that engine running 5w30, especially if you run in a warmer climate. However, I doubt you'll make it last any longer, either. I'm old enough to remember when conventional wisdom said going from 10w40 to 10w30 was detrimental. When the industry moved to 5w30, the sky was falling. Funny thing. Back then, you were lucky to get an engine to go much past 100k, unless it was a Volvo. There is much more to the new oils than just the weight. They are highly engineered to handle the job that has been given to them. One day, we'll be telling people they need a thick oil, like the 0w20 we used to run. :cwl:
 

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I was told that you should follow the recommended first oil change interval because the factory oil has some break in lubricant. This could cause rear main seal leaks and other issues. Any thoughts on this.
 

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I was told that you should follow the recommended first oil change interval because the factory oil has some break in lubricant. This could cause rear main seal leaks and other issues. Any thoughts on this.
I did a UOA on the factory fill and it looked like Pennzoil Gold or Pennzoil Platinum 0w20. There was nothing showing up in it that was different than you'd expect to see in any motor oil. They recommend that interval simply because it is fine to leave the original oil in it that long. It doesn't do any harm. The high level of silicates in it are from gasket sealer residue from when assembled new. That's the only unusual thing you'll find.

My nephew builds high performance drag racing and midget racing engines. They don't put any additives in the oil when they break their engines in and seat the valves. It is the same oil they always use.
 

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@Jeep4Life0112

Usually, when I talk first oil change to guys/gals, I usually stress how you can screw up the oil pan plug when you go to put it back in. I tell them to make sure you wipe it clean and to put it back in with your fingers prior to using a wrench..

Go easy, and be sure not to cross thread the oil plug.

After it is in, do not over tighten as you can damage things.

If you have a torque wrench torque to 20 ft/lb. If no torque wrench, snug up good but don't get crazy with it.

For me, for the last say 15 yrs. or so, I have opted to install an Oil Drain Valve. Such a valve replaces the oil pan plug and makes oil change time so much easier.

I will give a link to the Fumoto which is the brand I use.

**DO READ all the caveats in regard to oil change valves and the Wrangler. IF you are climbing boulders and such an oil change valve may not be a good idea.

I have use Fumoto's on everything from aircraft to tractors, to Jeeps to Vettes, to....

Read here:
https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...m14-1-5-drain-valve-for-the-wrangler-jl.4441/
Do you use oil pan skid plate?
 

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@allieboy

No, not these days.... not with the JL, Rubi I have. No plans to offroad with it.

Were I going to do mild off roading, I would still keep the Fumoto on. ..... but....

I would buy a skid plate and if it would not go on / fit, because of the Fumoto, I would just have a local metal fabricator/welder or a friend that welds, take the purchased skid plate and adapt it (easy to do) to incorporate the Fumoto. This would cost very little to do. Yes, my Fumoto is worth it in my mind to do so.
 

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I'm really looking forward to seeing what you present. I've looked at countless UOAs on BITOG and haven't seen this kind of trend, at all. The thick/thin debate rages because there is no conclusive evidence supporting one over the other for engine longevity. I see engines there hit over 200k miles all the time on both thin and thick oils. On the 3.8 V6 in my JK, I've done UOA's on 5w20 vs. 5w30 and 10w30. I saw no significant difference.
It sounds like you could use anything and be fine. Maybe just go for the cheapest oil......I only have 1100 miles on mine and haven't done anything yet.
 

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It sounds like you could use anything and be fine. Maybe just go for the cheapest oil......I only have 1100 miles on mine and haven't done anything yet.
Well, you could on that 3.8 because it was origninally designed for 10w30 and 5w30 and tolerances aren't so tight. I hesitate on the gen 2 Pentastar because the valve train and other parts are newly designed or updated, and specified 0w20 from the get go. I'll let someone else give the thicker oils a try and see how they do. I see no reason not to run 0w20. If going for the cheapest oil, you wouldn't be far off with Pennzoil Platinum 0w20 and their rebate. 5 quarts at my Walmart go for about 13 bucks after rebate. You get one of the cheapest and one of the best all in one bottle. That's hard to beat.

It will be interesting to see what they specify on the Gladiator. It gets the 3.6 and can tow over 7k pounds, and is heavier than the Wrangler, to begin with. If they specify a thicker oil for severe duty, then you could safely run it in the Wrangler 3.6. I'm betting that won't happen and we'll see 0w20 specified under all conditions in that truck. If that is the case, then it should ease anyone's worries about 0w20 providing enough protection.
 

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Your first oil change is recommended when you hit 10% or less on your Oil life Meter.. the factory oil has additives to help the motor break in .. In my experience the oil meters are very accurate on JEEP brand vehicles .. also use the recommended oil on your cap 5w20 .. I have seen vehicles DTC printouts, and it registers if the wrong viscosity of oil was used .. it won’t cause a check engine light , but it does register.
 

DanW

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Your first oil change is recommended when you hit 10% or less on your Oil life Meter.. the factory oil has additives to help the motor break in .. In my experience the oil meters are very accurate on JEEP brand vehicles .. also use the recommended oil on your cap 5w20 .. I have seen vehicles DTC printouts, and it registers if the wrong viscosity of oil was used .. it won’t cause a check engine light , but it does register.
The factory fill out has no special additives. They quit doing that years ago as tolerances tightened up. The makeup of additives in my factory fill, which was analyzed, was typical of a semi or full synthetic 0w20. The only break in issue to consider is proper seating of the rings, which occurs very quickly. In fact, it is likely accomplished during the final test/leak check at the engine factory, if not when the completed Jeep goes through its short running and driving check before delivery. There is also no recommendation in the owners owners for keeping the factory fill in for a minimum distance. There is no harm in doing so, but no harm in changing it early, either.
 

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Your first oil change is recommended when you hit 10% or less on your Oil life Meter.. the factory oil has additives to help the motor break in .. In my experience the oil meters are very accurate on JEEP brand vehicles .. also use the recommended oil on your cap 5w20 .. I have seen vehicles DTC printouts, and it registers if the wrong viscosity of oil was used .. it won’t cause a check engine light , but it does register.
Where did you get this Recommendation? This is the first I’ve heard of it , can you post a link or tell me where to find that in the owners manual.
Thank you
 

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Where did you get this Recommendation? This is the first I’ve heard of it , can you post a link or tell me where to find that in the owners manual.
Thank you
There is no such animal, so expect no link or how to find in the JL manual, to be forthcoming.
 

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There is no such animal, so expect no link or how to find in the JL manual, to be forthcoming.
Your absolutely right, is it not in the manual.. I said it was recommended. Instead of saying "first" oil change I should have typed all oil changes. People waste there money changing oil every 3,000 miles, when they have a much longer span.. based on how you drive your JL .. and yes that is in the manual. I should have been clearer and said , just let the oil meter tell you when it needs changing ..

"Based on engine operation conditions, the oil change indicator message will illuminate. This means that service is required for your vehicle. Operating conditions such as frequent short-trips, trailer tow, extremely hot or cold ambient temperatures will influence when the “Change Oil” or “Oil Change Required” message is displayed. Severe Operating Conditions can cause the change oil message to illuminate as early as 3,500 miles (5,600 km) since last reset. Have your vehicle serviced as soon as possible, within the next 500 miles (805 km)."
 

DanW

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I asked my nephew who owns a company that builds racing engines ( 4-Piston Racing, building 4 cylinder normally aspirated Hondas that put out 500+ horsepower) what oil they run in brand new production Honda-based racing engines. He said they don't run a "break-in" oil, but rather whatever oil they plan on running regularly in the engines. They like to use a high zinc oil such as Penn Grade or one sold by Joe Gibbs called "Driven." However, he said that many of their customers run, from when the engines are new, cheap oil, including Autozone conventional oil. (And they perform well.) He said they run lighter weight oils because the tolerances are tight. On new direct injection engines, he said they will loosen up the tolerances a bit and run a thicker oil to combat high fuel contamination. That sounds exactly like what Jeep is doing: 0w20 in the 3.6 (not direct injected) and 5w30 in the direct injected 2.0 turbo.

So there you have it, from a highly successful racing engine builder. There is no special break-in oils used in their 2.0 to 2.7 liter racing engines. If a 2.5 liter NA 4 cylinder engine pumping out 500 horsepower doesn't use break in oil, then neither does a production 3.6 or 2.0.

I think this comes from many years ago when some manufacturers would put straight 30 weight oil, sometimes with no detergents, into new engines to cause some wear to help seat the rings. I'd guess that may have been common in the 60's and 70's, but I'm not really sure. I've heard it before, though, but I've not found one person in or near the industry who says it has been done in subsequent decades.
 

DanW

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Your absolutely right, is it not in the manual.. I said it was recommended. Instead of saying "first" oil change I should have typed all oil changes. People waste there money changing oil every 3,000 miles, when they have a much longer span.. based on how you drive your JL .. and yes that is in the manual. I should have been clearer and said , just let the oil meter tell you when it needs changing ..

"Based on engine operation conditions, the oil change indicator message will illuminate. This means that service is required for your vehicle. Operating conditions such as frequent short-trips, trailer tow, extremely hot or cold ambient temperatures will influence when the “Change Oil” or “Oil Change Required” message is displayed. Severe Operating Conditions can cause the change oil message to illuminate as early as 3,500 miles (5,600 km) since last reset. Have your vehicle serviced as soon as possible, within the next 500 miles (805 km)."
I do agree that it wouldn't hurt anything, at all, to run them the full oil change distance on the factory fill. I just chose, for my own reasons, to change it out early, which also certainly does no harm.
 
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