Farout Jeep Wrangler announced as Rubicon Diesel final edition -- sad day today for the diesel crowd [UPDATED: with official press release]

[Astro Jeep]

Eco rubi is 21 26

This was after fighting headwinds and storms the last 400ish miles. Before that I was averaging over 30mpg on this trip. 80% highways, and 20% overlanding above 7000 feet. So the EPA sticker may say one thing, but reality is a bit different. At least it is in my diesel.

Sponsored

 

[rickinAZ]

I am not on the EV bandwagon yet either, but wouldn't mind owning one. But the day an EV can "destroy" an ICE vehicle in along distance race is a LONG way out, if ever.

One would have also predicted that a car would never beat a horse/buggy over a long distance before America had consistent refueling solutions (but we did have plenty of watering troughs and hay bales).

Same issue. Technology will always find away.

 

[rickinAZ]

Once someone like tesla puts in a hot swap battery and you have battery stations vs gas station then yes... till then the pure EV is really worthless as a traveling vehicle

Or...the power will be wirelessly resident in the roadway with NO recharging whatsoever. Innovation is usually difficult to envision from where we're standing now.

Picture how cellular phones pass millions of calls from tower-to-tower simultaneously. Who could have envisioned that while we were using rotary dial phones?

 

[MountainRigged]

[/QUOTE]

This was after fighting headwinds and storms the last 400ish miles. Before that I was averaging over 30mpg on this trip. 80% highways, and 20% overlanding above 7000 feet. So the EPA sticker may say one thing, but reality is a bit different. At least it is in my diesel.

There's a lot of variables that go into it. You also don't have a metal bumper. The terrain is a big one, so on and so forth. I just barely got my diesel, with metal f/r bumpers, JPP Slider w Step Assist, stock 33 m/t falkens. 50/50 highway/city. And getting 21/22 personally. So, really depends on your mods, the altitude, terrain, and type of pedal foot you have. I consider myself a conservative to average foot on the pedal.

The engine itself can perform 30+ of course. I just listed the rating spec facts.

 

[Chupacabra]

This was after fighting headwinds and storms the last 400ish miles. Before that I was averaging over 30mpg on this trip. 80% highways, and 20% overlanding above 7000 feet. So the EPA sticker may say one thing, but reality is a bit different. At least it is in my diesel.

You clean that screen with a dirty dishrag?

 

[BDinTX]

One would have also predicted that a car would never beat a horse/buggy over a long distance before America had consistent refueling solutions (but we did have plenty of watering troughs and hay bales).

Same issue. Technology will always find away.

I too agree that eventually an EV of some sort will win out. I just don't think the current offerings are the answer. They need to have longer range and be able to recharge much quicker.

With both the horse vs car and the cell phone vs wired examples there is one major difference. The technology earned its adoption, nobody was saying you can no longer buy horses and jacking up the price of hay.

 

[Traveller128]

We will get there for sure. But it will take time.

Personally, I'm waiting for one of the manufacturers to start up with swappable battery packs in some kind of subscription service. That would solve the recharge time issue. It would also amortize the cost of a battery replacement over the life of the subscription. When that works out, the others will likely follow suit.

For now though, I'm sticking with my diesel. When the diesel is done I'll look at the options available.

There's been talk, but they are going to be a long time figuring out the 1500+ lb battery swap procedure. There are huge hurdles in the way, we've discussed it at school, and the solution for the next several years is going to be the DC-DC charge stations, not swappable packs. For motorcycles, it's a small enough pack that it can be done. Inroads are being made on that front, that may happen in the next several years. They are much smaller KW storage, smaller cell count, simpler systems. Car packs are WAY more complex.

At issue, is the techs that work on the high voltage cars are all factory trained before they're allowed to touch anything with an orange wire going to it. You'd have to train up a whole new group of attendants to swap out a pack. This is not going to be something the OEM's are going to want customers doing themselves. The liability for 75-100 KW of energy filled device at 400+ volts, being handled by a customer is HUGE. The idea of an automated system doing it, with no one checking the installation, is also problematic.

The amount of energy in the pack is simply enormous. Gasoline in a tank is a simple system comparatively. The high voltage systems, if they fail, and they do, tend to dump all their energy into a runaway reaction. Think, nuclear meltdown.

Tesla is up to 134 confirmed battery fires with 38 fatalities, just on a system that can't be touched by the consumer. Putting low trained techs into the system swapping out a pack that is already somewhat prone to letting the energy out in a dramatic way, is asking for even more trouble. Letting the customer switch out packs for an unknown pack (condition, internal cell balance, internal resistance) is putting the risk level above acceptable. The cooling system precludes swapping them.

I work on these packs, and every single cell needs to be monitored individually. A failure of one cell, shuts down the pack, because a short or open can cause severe results otherwise. Putting more batteries into rotation, adds a lot of variables. There is a cooling system in place that cannot be connected and disconnected to swap. There's a couple versions of battery cooling, one involves cooling the base of a cell module, and the other involves plates of metal with coolant circulating in them, and heat conductive bonding agent holding the cell modules in direct contact with the cooled metal base. Heat is the serious enemy of the current batteries. Probably the reason the Tesla stuff keeps lighting. Cooling while the vehicle is shut down inadequate.

The interesting thing about the Tesla fires, is they have far exceeded the actual number of fires in the Ford Pinto from the 70's. Those numbers were inflated by reporters, but the actual deaths from fires in Pintos in 1975 was 11, and 1976 had 12 (NHTSA sourced, fires from fuel tank rupture resulting in death, Pinto) when the reporters were saying there were over 800 deaths (there weren't). By comparison, Tesla has had more fire deaths from batteries than Ford did, and that resulted in a major black eye for Ford, recalls, huge publicity, jokes about driving Fords back then, etc. Not sure why the electric vehicles are getting a pass on this. By comparison, other manufacturers are not having as much of a problem.

We've been told that if heat is detected in a pack suddenly while working on them, roll it outside as quickly as possible, call the fire department, and get away from it. There is no way to stop it, it takes a very specific fire extinguishing chemical to slow the reaction. It doesn't put it out, it simply takes some of the heat out. It can remain hot and smoldering for a couple DAYS afterwards.

 

[grimmjeeper]

There's been talk, but they are going to be a long time figuring out the 1500+ lb battery swap procedure. There are huge hurdles in the way, we've discussed it at school, and the solution for the next several years is going to be the DC-DC charge stations, not swappable packs. For motorcycles, it's a small enough pack that it can be done. Inroads are being made on that front, that may happen in the next several years. They are much smaller KW storage, smaller cell count, simpler systems. Car packs are WAY more complex.

At issue, is the techs that work on the high voltage cars are all factory trained before they're allowed to touch anything with an orange wire going to it. You'd have to train up a whole new group of attendants to swap out a pack. This is not going to be something the OEM's are going to want customers doing themselves. The liability for 75-100 KW of energy filled device at 400+ volts, being handled by a customer is HUGE. The idea of an automated system doing it, with no one checking the installation, is also problematic.

The amount of energy in the pack is simply enormous. Gasoline in a tank is a simple system comparatively. The high voltage systems, if they fail, and they do, tend to dump all their energy into a runaway reaction. Think, nuclear meltdown.

Tesla is up to 134 confirmed battery fires with 38 fatalities, just on a system that can't be touched by the consumer. Putting low trained techs into the system swapping out a pack that is already somewhat prone to letting the energy out in a dramatic way, is asking for even more trouble. Letting the customer switch out packs for an unknown pack (condition, internal cell balance, internal resistance) is putting the risk level above acceptable. The cooling system precludes swapping them.

I work on these packs, and every single cell needs to be monitored individually. A failure of one cell, shuts down the pack, because a short or open can cause severe results otherwise. Putting more batteries into rotation, adds a lot of variables. There is a cooling system in place that cannot be connected and disconnected to swap. There's a couple versions of battery cooling, one involves cooling the base of a cell module, and the other involves plates of metal with coolant circulating in them, and heat conductive bonding agent holding the cell modules in direct contact with the cooled metal base. Heat is the serious enemy of the current batteries. Probably the reason the Tesla stuff keeps lighting. Cooling while the vehicle is shut down inadequate.

The interesting thing about the Tesla fires, is they have far exceeded the actual number of fires in the Ford Pinto from the 70's. Those numbers were inflated by reporters, but the actual deaths from fires in Pintos in 1975 was 11, and 1976 had 12 (NHTSA sourced, fires from fuel tank rupture resulting in death, Pinto) when the reporters were saying there were over 800 deaths (there weren't). By comparison, Tesla has had more fire deaths from batteries than Ford did, and that resulted in a major black eye for Ford, recalls, huge publicity, jokes about driving Fords back then, etc. Not sure why the electric vehicles are getting a pass on this. By comparison, other manufacturers are not having as much of a problem.

We've been told that if heat is detected in a pack suddenly while working on them, roll it outside as quickly as possible, call the fire department, and get away from it. There is no way to stop it, it takes a very specific fire extinguishing chemical to slow the reaction. It doesn't put it out, it simply takes some of the heat out. It can remain hot and smoldering for a couple DAYS afterwards.

There's a taxi service in Tokyo that has an automated system that handles the battery pack swap now. They've been operating for a while. The batteries are secured under the body and a robotic system pulls batteries and puts a replacement in.

There are solutions to the potential problems.

Granted, having to support multiple types of vehicles introduces complexity but it's not an insurmountable problem. In the long run anyway. We're still years (decades?) Away from it. But battery charging time is going to be a major hurdle for a lot longer unless we magically come up with some kind of magical batteries that can charge in minutes instead of hours.

 

[Jocko]

Wow how did I miss this thread?? @SparkleTooth thank you that was extremely entertaining! Unsurprisingly, Stellantis did issue an official press release confirming everything in the first post.

Seriously though, acknowledging the end of the ED run doesn't somehow negate the advantages that the ED drivetrain had. And, sorry to sound patronizing, but the massive impact that diesel engines have had on society as a whole. Yes it is sad to see things we love in their final days. Like snarling V8s, etc.

 

[SparkleTooth]

Unsurprisingly, Stellantis did issue an official press release confirming everything in the first post.

I still can find nothing from Stellantis...do you have a link to the source?

 

[Bohica]

I can’t believe some of you think the EcoDiesel will live on in only the most niche of all the offerings that engine went in I admire your optimism but seriously, it’s done.

You may be correct...but why the euphoria?

 

[Grumps]

I still can find nothing from Stellantis...do you have a link to the source?

I agree... every website that has this as news, quotes jlwranglerforums.com as it's source with the only exception (that I've found) being moparinsiders.com and they quote no source.

 

[Deleted member 59498]

You may be correct...but why the euphoria?

People are strange like that. As if they are in the know or something and sort of "nah nah nah". Weird.

 

[Teqsand]

Or...the power will be wirelessly resident in the roadway with NO recharging whatsoever. Innovation is usually difficult to envision from where we're standing now.

Picture how cellular phones pass millions of calls from tower-to-tower simultaneously. Who could have envisioned that while we were using rotary dial phones?

Well
1. That's a Nicola tesla concept from the 1800's and one I think we have yet scratch the surface on.. (but let's rush headlong into the current fad)

2. Who could have envisioned it? Hedy Lamarr, the 1940's actress who invented frequency hopping in WWII that is basis Cell phones, gps, wifi ....

Both are actually old tech

 

[SparkleTooth]

I agree... every website that has this as news, quotes jlwranglerforums.com as it's source with the only exception (that I've found) being moparinsiders.com and they quote no source.

I simply don't believe there is an official statement. Either way I understand the writing is on the wall, and FCA has 300 million to shell out now due to the ecodiesel case with the GC. Still it's not like Stellantis did not have visibility and foresight into the future of diesel before they invested in redesigning it for the wrangler. It makes no sense to do all that for a 2 or 3 year run.
Either way I still stand firm that out of all the wranglers I have owned, this is by far the best engine/transmission option yet.

Sponsored