ESS Dual Battery Management

WranglerMan

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@Redbaron73 you will soon find out that most if not all makers of chargers will not disclose the charger algorithms that there chargers use this is what I found out during my months of reading, emailing and phone calls.

My guess is it’s protected copyright stuff they don’t or can’t release, all of the Smart Chargers i looked at all peak at the advertised rate so with the NOCO 10 that would be 10 amps at 14.5 volts on the AGM cycle and i have measured this over a dozen charging cycles metered directly at the battery with a digital meter but understand once it sees 10 amps at 14.5 for a determined time it automatically kicks down the amps and voltage so for my testing at times the 10 amps output was as short as 30 mins and as long as 90 but I was charging two batteries that combined are 128 aH rating and are identical.

I am not sure I would use the NOCO 10 on the ESS battery but something to ponder is if one were to connect the NOCO to the main crank battery and since the main crank is connected to the ESS battery would this not make it one big battery for charging ? I openly admit Ive not researched this enough to tell you if that’s correct or not, maybe @Jebiruph can chime in and clarify but if the batteries are connected at a rested state ( Jeep off ) then I would think it would be connected amp hours and the NOCO 10 would be ok but again I have no technical knowledge to back this up.
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Jebiruph

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When charging the aux battery, my NOCO10 is flasshing "red" for over 1 hour. I have positive connected to the main battery positve, negative connected to the Aux battery stud, and the battery disconnect in a disconnected state, thus separating the aux from the main.

The voltage meter reads 15.1v during the charge event, so it is charging. Does this mean I possibly have a bad aux battery? Prior to charging I was holding a 12.5V for a few days.
I connected a 2amp atv charger and it fully charged in 20 minutes. I then charged the main using the noco 10 and it charged within 15 minutes.

Lesson learned about noco10 and the smaller battery. I am going to order a noco 2 for the aux.
@Redbaron73, What light was flashing "red" for over 1 hour? With it at 15.1v when it didn't seem to charge, do you know what the voltages were when you successfully charged the batteries?

I'm not an expert on batteries and charging and I've probably ruined many motorcycle batteries by using too large of a charger, but here's what I think I know.

The charger will vary the charging amps by varying the voltage used to charge. In my JL, I've seen system voltage as high as 14.8v, so that's the voltage that's charging both batteries. The resulting charging amps would depend on the charge level of the battery, it would be more amps for a dead battery and fewer amps for a charged battery.

For a 10 amp charger charging a dead battery, it would start with a lower voltage and as the battery charged, it would have to increase the voltage to keep the charging rate at 10 amps.

When charging both batteries from the main battery, I expect the larger capacity of the main battery to mean it will also consume a relatively larger amount of the charging amps. The additional wiring (resistance) the charge goes through to get to the aux battery will also cause more of the charge to go to the main battery.

From the NOCO10 website (https://no.co/genius10), it sure looks like they support it charging smaller batteries, they even give expected charging times based on battery size. Thinking about how it could safely charge smaller batteries, what if this new GENIUS series incorporates battery sensor technology in the charger? By monitoring the rate of charge over time, it would be able to differentiate between larger and smaller batteries by how quickly they were charging, then adjust the charging rate down for the smaller batteries.
 

Redbaron73

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@Jebiruph the red light flashing was the indicator of less than 25%. This kept flashing the entire time.

The part circled here is the ground where charger was connected. I don't have a picture in the jeep, but it's the same as you documented.
20210328_134404.jpg

I unplugged the charger from the ground, and the charger turned off.

I then reconnect to ground, and charger turned back on. It went to 12v agm automatically and started charging. In 15 minutes it said fully charged.

What I don't like is the charger logic did not recognize the battery was full and kept trying to charge.

Once charged the battery read 13.1v, but after reating it was 12.8v.

24hrs later it was 12.7v
 

WranglerMan

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@Redbaron73, What light was flashing "red" for over 1 hour? With it at 15.1v when it didn't seem to charge, do you know what the voltages were when you successfully charged the batteries?

I'm not an expert on batteries and charging and I've probably ruined many motorcycle batteries by using too large of a charger, but here's what I think I know.

The charger will vary the charging amps by varying the voltage used to charge. In my JL, I've seen system voltage as high as 14.8v, so that's the voltage that's charging both batteries. The resulting charging amps would depend on the charge level of the battery, it would be more amps for a dead battery and fewer amps for a charged battery.

For a 10 amp charger charging a dead battery, it would start with a lower voltage and as the battery charged, it would have to increase the voltage to keep the charging rate at 10 amps.

When charging both batteries from the main battery, I expect the larger capacity of the main battery to mean it will also consume a relatively larger amount of the charging amps. The additional wiring (resistance) the charge goes through to get to the aux battery will also cause more of the charge to go to the main battery.

From the NOCO10 website (https://no.co/genius10), it sure looks like they support it charging smaller batteries, they even give expected charging times based on battery size. Thinking about how it could safely charge smaller batteries, what if this new GENIUS series incorporates battery sensor technology in the charger? By monitoring the rate of charge over time, it would be able to differentiate between larger and smaller batteries by how quickly they were charging, then adjust the charging rate down for the smaller batteries.
Jerry many thanks for your great insight, I continue to learn from you all the time.

You are correct on the charger algorithm, when I connect the NOCO it initially starts off low and the amps float with the voltage, on my setup the voltage normally climbs slow and once it sees 14.5-14.7 it kicks back to a lower voltage then slowly ramps back up and the amps do the same and according to several NOCO reps I have talked to this is the “Smart” technology of the charger as it’s designed to look at multiple things like ambient temp, battery condition and battery SOH and DOD and the charge is adjusted accordingly, I kept trying to get several reps to disclose more info on how this all worked but that was going nowhere.

I think the days of the old fixed amp chargers are long gone and rightfully so as like you I have left batteries on chargers to long and to high of rate and cooked them but it seems these “Smart“ chargers take all the guess work out.
 

WranglerMan

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@Jebiruph the red light flashing was the indicator of less than 25%. This kept flashing the entire time.

The part circled here is the ground where charger was connected. I don't have a picture in the jeep, but it's the same as you documented.
20210328_134404.jpg

I unplugged the charger from the ground, and the charger turned off.

I then reconnect to ground, and charger turned back on. It went to 12v agm automatically and started charging. In 15 minutes it said fully charged.

What I don't like is the charger logic did not recognize the battery was full and kept trying to charge.

Once charged the battery read 13.1v, but after reating it was 12.8v.

24hrs later it was 12.7v
Not that it makes a difference but I have found out that if you connect or disconnect either the positive or negative charger leads while it’s plugged in it can and has in my using one tossed the charger into a brain upset and when I confronted NOCO on this they advised that the power cord should be the last thing you plug in before charging and the first thing to unplug when disconnecting, they said that if you pull one of the leads off while it’s still plugged in it throws the analyzer technology into a fit and it thinks there is a problem.

Also the charger remembers the last state it was in so if you set it for AGM and then unplug everything even after a week when plugging back in it still remembers that last state so that tells me it has some type of EPROM chip that holds power and remembers settings
 

JJT-NC

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Ohhhhh... I see. Yep, disregard what I posted, then.

@JJT-NC - I will say that West Marine carries proper gauge wire and lugs for making custom length battery cables. I’ve had to make a few for my boat. A solder gun make it much easier... doable with an iron, but those battery wires are thick.
Thank you for your replies. I do like the idea of that battery disconnect! My aim is to easily isolate both batteries for vehicle storage and towing. My owners manual depicts the ESS->main battery cable disconnected from main(-), as well as the main battery->ground cable disconnected from main (-). And there they are held, right in the mechanics hands!

That 'ammper' solution could be one way to do it, along with another switch. Because, of course, I need both batteries disconnected from ground AND each other's negative terminals.

I like that Blue Sea Systems 2-battery switch! Could be a challenge to wire though.

My searching skills are likely at fault, as I don't find discussions on this anywhere on the interweb! Thanks to all on this thread for their help.
 

Radio Guy

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Been following this thread and I might do some or all of Jerry's additions. I will comment that on the large bolt added to the battery switch as an electrical connection, its a good idea to use a solid copper bolt, washer and nut due to the high resistance of stainless or other steels. If you look at any 12V power supply rated 20 amps or more or many other high current items they all use copper bolts for wire connections. I've used 1/4" stainless bolts in the past on a high current project and was surprised how quickly they heated up with lots of current flowing.
 

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I do not know anyone that has actually installed this AGM battery on a JL/JLU/JT but this might just be the go to battery as a replacement for the JL/JLU/JT Aux battery. I just became aware of this aftermarket offering ..

Braille Battery Advanced AGM Lightweight Racing Battery
Part Number: 147-B2015

Capture2.JPG

  • Advanced AGM Lightweight Racing Battery
    Cranking Amp Tests:
    • PCA 5 seconds - 1067 Amps
    • PCA 10 seconds - 933 Amps
    • PCA 20 seconds - 824 Amps
    • HCA 690 Amps
    • CA 574 Amps
    • CCA 425 Amps
    • Amp Hour Rating: 21
    • Battery Type: Sealed Rechargeable Deep-Cycle
    • Mounting: Vertical or Horizontal

      PERFORMANCE
      Voltage: 12 volts
      Full Charge Voltage: 13.8 volts
      Short Circuit Current (Max Cranking Amps): 2500 est.
      Pulse Cranking Amps (PCA) 5 sec @ 80F: 1067
      Pulse Cranking Amps (PCA) 10 sec @ 80F: 933
      Pulse Cranking Amps (PCA) 20 sec @ 80F: 824
      Cranking Amps 30 sec @ 80F: 690
      Cranking Amps 30 sec @ 32F: 574
      Cold Cranking Amps 30 sec @ 0F: 425
      Reserve Capacity: 35 minutes
      Capacity (C/20 rate): 21 amp hr
      Internal Resistance (ohms): 4.5 milliohms (.0045ohms)
      Life Cycle @ 100% DOD: Up to 3100 cycles
      PHYSICAL SPECS
      Durable Virgin Poly Casing, Horizontal and Vertical Mounting
      BCI Group: Usable for all Group Sizes
      Length: 6.8"
      Width: 3.4"
      Height: 6.1"
      Minimum Weight (lbs): 15 lbs
      Post Type: SAE Automotive Posts included & 6 x 1.0mm racing bolts included.
      Stainless Stud: Both Automotive SAE Posts and Race Style Bolts are Stainless with a 6 x 1.0mm bolt pitch
      Capture.JPG
      @Jebiruph
 

Steve JLUR

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6/6/21 I do not know anyone that has actually installed this AGM battery as their Aux battery in a JL/JLU/JT but this might just be the go to battery as a replacement for the JL/JLU/JT Aux battery.
I just became aware of this aftermarket offering ..

Braille Battery Advanced AGM Lightweight Racing Battery
Part Number: 147-B2015

Capture2.JPG

  • Advanced AGM Lightweight Racing Battery
    Cranking Amp Tests:
    • PCA 5 seconds - 1067 Amps
    • PCA 10 seconds - 933 Amps
    • PCA 20 seconds - 824 Amps
    • HCA 690 Amps
    • CA 574 Amps
    • CCA 425 Amps
    • Amp Hour Rating: 21
    • Battery Type: Sealed Rechargeable Deep-Cycle
    • Mounting: Vertical or Horizontal

      PERFORMANCE
      Voltage: 12 volts
      Full Charge Voltage: 13.8 volts
      Short Circuit Current (Max Cranking Amps): 2500 est.
      Pulse Cranking Amps (PCA) 5 sec @ 80F: 1067
      Pulse Cranking Amps (PCA) 10 sec @ 80F: 933
      Pulse Cranking Amps (PCA) 20 sec @ 80F: 824
      Cranking Amps 30 sec @ 80F: 690
      Cranking Amps 30 sec @ 32F: 574
      Cold Cranking Amps 30 sec @ 0F: 425
      Reserve Capacity: 35 minutes
      Capacity (C/20 rate): 21 amp hr
      Internal Resistance (ohms): 4.5 milliohms (.0045ohms)
      Life Cycle @ 100% DOD: Up to 3100 cycles
      PHYSICAL SPECS
      Durable Virgin Poly Casing, Horizontal and Vertical Mounting
      BCI Group: Usable for all Group Sizes
      Length: 6.8"
      Width: 3.4"
      Height: 6.1"
      Minimum Weight (lbs): 15 lbs
      Post Type: SAE Automotive Posts included & 6 x 1.0mm racing bolts included.
      Stainless Stud: Both Automotive SAE Posts and Race Style Bolts are Stainless with a 6 x 1.0mm bolt pitch
      Capture.JPG
      @Jebiruph
Not being argumentative. Why is this a better alternative to any other choice?
 

Rhinebeck01

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Not being argumentative. Why is this a better alternative to any other choice?
@Steve JLUR

Compare the specs of the stock and or other aftermarket batteries that others have posted they installed/use for their Aux battery.

This Braille Battery Advanced AGM Lightweight Racing Battery Part Number: 147-B2015 , has more then double the CCA of others... the Amp hour rating is 21 and, and......

Looks to me like this Braille, probably is the pick of the litter so to speak as far as the known to date, batteries that people have installed/use as their Aux battery in a JL/JLU/JT.

Again, I have heard no one say they have installed this battery but it seems like it would install aok on a JL/JLU/JT. Also, I am not saying or implying that this Aux battery replacement will remedy the short comings of the stock dual battery system... 8-)
 

WranglerMan

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If I were to still have the stock setup and had to replace the aux the one @Rhinebeck01 linked would be a decent choice but I would try to engineer a way to have it in the engine bay and that might require using a Genesis battery tray with no top hardware, my initial thought is the main crank battery and aux could sit sideways in the new tray but one would have to measure and then fine a universal battery hold down.
 

Rhinebeck01

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Well, installed an N1-N2 Jumper (40 amp fuse) on 2/17/2019 and have been running my 2018 for well over 2 yrs., with just the Main battery and the Aux battery just sitting there maintained should I ever need/want to use it....

Anyway, never any issue doing this... Never any low/depleted Main. Never any ESS warning lights/CEL's. Never been stranded with battery(2) related issues..

I do occasionally/rarely use Stop Start but keep it off 99% of the time.

Anyway, probably running with just the Main is one of the wisest moves I have made / done in regard to my 2018 JL.

I predict this year......2021 will be the year many many 2018 owner's will be here complaining of battery issues... as their batteries are aging out so to speak..
 
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Jebiruph

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Well, installed an N1-N2 Jumper (40 amp fuse) on 2/17/2019 and have been running my 2018 for well over 2 yrs., with just the Main battery and the Aux battery just sitting there maintained should I ever need/want to use it....

Anyway, never any issue doing this... Never any low/depleted Main. Never any ESS warning lights/CEL's. Never been stranded with battery(2) related issues..

I do occasionally/rarely use Stop Start but keep it off 99% of the time.

Anyway, probably running with just the Main is one of the wisest moves I have made / done in regard to my 2018 JL.

I predict this year......2021 will be the year many many 2018 owner's will be here complaining of battery issues... as their batteries are aging out so to speak..
Thanks for the update. Two things people need to realize is first that it's not the actual auto stopping and starting that's degrading the batteries, it's the constant interaction between the two dissimilar that's the problem. Second is that the aux battery doesn't have to be physically removed to mitigate the interaction, It can be electrically disconnected and left in place as a backup.
 

Mtrctylarry

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Well, installed an N1-N2 Jumper (40 amp fuse) on 2/17/2019 and have been running my 2018 for well over 2 yrs., with just the Main battery and the Aux battery just sitting there maintained should I ever need/want to use it....

Anyway, never any issue doing this... Never any low/depleted Main. Never any ESS warning lights/CEL's. Never been stranded with battery(2) related issues..

I do occasionally/rarely use Stop Start but keep it off 99% of the time.

Anyway, probably running with just the Main is one of the wisest moves I have made / done in regard to my 2018 JL.

I predict this year......2021 will be the year many many 2018 owner's will be here complaining of battery issues... as their batteries are aging out so to speak..
Well, installed an N1-N2 Jumper (40 amp fuse) on 2/17/2019 and have been running my 2018 for well over 2 yrs., with just the Main battery and the Aux battery just sitting there maintained should I ever need/want to use it....

Anyway, never any issue doing this... Never any low/depleted Main. Never any ESS warning lights/CEL's. Never been stranded with battery(2) related issues..

I do occasionally/rarely use Stop Start but keep it off 99% of the time.

Anyway, probably running with just the Main is one of the wisest moves I have made / done in regard to my 2018 JL.

I predict this year......2021 will be the year many many 2018 owner's will be here complaining of battery issues... as their batteries are aging out so to speak..
How did you make your Jumper...please give me the specs or where you got it. How do you keep the Aux Battery charged, or will it charge with the Jumper in place. I know it's somewhere in the thread but I would like to know exactly what you are using...Thanks, Larry
 
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Jebiruph

Jebiruph

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How did you make your Jumper...please give me the specs or where you got it. How do you keep the Aux Battery charged, or will it charge with the Jumper in place. I know it's somewhere in the thread but I would like to know exactly what you are using...Thanks, Larry
There's lot's of information here https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/3-6l-ess-dual-battery-consolidated-information.25377/

It's important to have a basic understanding about what you are doing before you start messing with it.
 
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