Embarrased to ask this question...

[Dyolfknip74]

You must not be a series wheeler


Confirmed.


LOL, like limiting speed in 4 low to 25 MPH. What a joke, same instructions with Ruby 4:1 xfer case and the non Ruby 2.7:1
Plenty of us routinely hit 50 MPH in our Rubicons in 4 low. But then, we do full lock turns on hard rock in 4 low.



Or a lot of other places.



I disagree with this, I don't hit the lockers until I need them or it appears I'll need them. For those who are over locker anxious, you'd be shocked what you can get through without them. On the other hand, I frequently hear on the radio "Joe, are you sure you've got your lockers on?" or my wife asking the same when I can't make it thru a line. Oops, then I crawl right through it.

You're hitting 50mph in 4lo and I'm not a serious wheeler? Interesting. I had no idea I could do that. You're right, I guess I mustn't be.

I based my ideas off of what the OP said in their post with a bunch of warning lights and grinding noises. it was a valid take on the issue as described.

As an aside, you seem to like quoting me and calling me out. Did I shit in your corn flakes or something? If so, I apologise, and if not, well you do you.

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[Vinman]

I disagree with this, I don't hit the lockers until I need them or it appears I'll need them. For those who are over locker anxious, you'd be shocked what you can get through without them. On the other hand, I frequently hear on the radio "Joe, are you sure you've got your lockers on?" or my wife asking the same when I can't make it thru a line. Oops, then I crawl right through it.

The Jeeps I took to Moab were all TJ Rubicons with stock lockers.
The stock rear lockers in those Jeeps were well known to fail if wheeled hard in the un-locked position, hence the reason I kept locked at all times when wheeling.
The JL gets wheeled with open diffs until lockers are needed.

 

[J0E]

You're hitting 50mph in 4lo and I'm not a serious wheeler? Interesting. I had no idea I could do that. You're right, I guess I mustn't be.

I based my ideas off of what the OP said in their post with a bunch of warning lights and grinding noises. it was a valid take on the issue as described.

As an aside, you seem to like quoting me and calling me out. Did I shit in your corn flakes or something? If so, I apologise, and if not, well you do you.

I was correcting your completely wrong assertions. It's normal. But you shouldn't do it. Wrong. That's so wrong.

Also, try to avoid full lock in 4wd. At least not for prolonged periods of time Wrong again, very wrong.

I would also explore the 4wd usage section of your owners manual. LOL

 

[J0E]

The Jeeps I took to Moab were all TJ Rubicons with stock lockers.
The stock rear lockers in those Jeeps were well known to fail if wheeled hard in the un-locked position, hence the reason I kept locked at all times when wheeling.
The JL gets wheeled with open diffs until lockers are needed.

That explains it.

What I don't like is going through a line that requires front/rear lockers and then getting to a place that's not difficult but requires full left or right and not being able to get the front lockers to disengage because they've got too much tension. So you have to rock back and forth, turning the wheel to get them to disengage. I think air lockers are better but have limits depending on the tension.

 

[c20040215]

LOL, like limiting speed in 4 low to 25 MPH. What a joke, same instructions with Ruby 4:1 xfer case and the non Ruby 2.7:1
Plenty of us routinely hit 50 MPH in our Rubicons in 4 low. But then, we do full lock turns on hard rock in 4 low.

4 low hit 50 MPH? Plenty of us? Routinely? Interesting!
Not sure why and what your set up is, but here are some reference:

For 37" tires + 4.10 gear + 4:1 Tcase to do 50MPH in 4 Low
8AT would be 7th gear at 6500rpm, or 8th gear at 5000rpm
6MT would be 5th gear at 6300rpm, or 6th gear at 5500rpm

For 37" tires + 5.13 gear + 4:1 Tcase to do 50MPH in 4 Low
8AT would be 8th gear at 6400rpm
6MT would be impossible.

Why would you routinely do that?

 

[Dyolfknip74]

I was correcting your completely wrong assertions. It's normal. But you shouldn't do it. Wrong. That's so wrong.

Also, try to avoid full lock in 4wd. At least not for prolonged periods of time Wrong again, very wrong.

I would also explore the 4wd usage section of your owners manual. LOL

Dude, you posted you go 50mph in 4lo. Where is that in the manual?
And yes, doing circles in 4wd should also be avoided. Why would you do that to your driveline?

Anyway, I get it, you have a lip on. Fee free to ignore my posts.

 

[J0E]

Dude, you posted you go 50mph in 4lo. Where is that in the manual?
And yes, doing circles in 4wd should also be avoided. Why would you do that to your driveline?

Anyway, I get it, you have a lip on. Fee free to ignore my posts.

You posted:

I would also explore the 4wd usage section of your owners manual.

I replied:

You must not be a series wheeler. Confirmed.


LOL, like limiting speed in 4 low to 25 MPH. What a joke, same instructions with Ruby 4:1 xfer case and the non Ruby 2.7:1
Plenty of us routinely hit 50 MPH in our Rubicons in 4 low. But then, we do full lock turns on hard rock in 4 low. Or a lot of other places.

You patronizingly say

I would also explore the 4wd usage section of your owners manual.

Yet you don't know that it says limit max speed in 4 Low to 25 MPH, which is absurd as the same instructions are in the Ruby and non-Ruby. Some pencil head wrote that 40 years ago and they've never thought about it or updated it.

And the manual is the same for every model, despite the fact many different gear ratios.

Axle ratios available for each model:

2-door JL Wrangler Sport (2.0L): 3.45
2-door JL Wrangler Sahara (2.0L): 3.45
2-door JL Wrangler Rubicon (2.0L): 3.73, 4.10
2-door JL Wrangler Sport (3.6L): 3.45
2-door JL Wrangler Sahara (3.6L): 3.45
2-door JL Wrangler Rubicon (3.6L): 3.73, 4.10

4-door JLU Wrangler Sport (2.0L): 3.45
4-door JLU Wrangler Sahara (2.0L): 3.45
4-door JLU Wrangler Rubicon (2.0L): 3.73, 4.10
4-door JLU Wrangler Sport (3.6L): 3.45
4-door JLU Wrangler Sahara (3.6L): 3.45
4-door JLU Wrangler Rubicon (3.6L): 3.73, 4.10
4-door JLU Wrangler Sport (3.0L diesel): 3.73
4-door JLU Wrangler Sahara (3.0L diesel): 3.73
4-door JLU Wrangler Rubicon (3.0L diesel): 3.73

JT Scrambler Pickup Base (3.6L): 3.45
JT Scrambler Pickups Premium (3.6L): 4.10
JT Scrambler Pickup Base (3.0L Diesel): 3.73
JT Scrambler Pickup Premium (3.0L Diesel): 3.73

And yes, doing circles in 4wd should also be avoided. Why would you do that to your driveline?

LOL, you need to reread

Contrary to popular belief, driving in 4WD on hard surfaces will not cause damage to the driveline, prematurely wear-out tires? Yes, cause damage? No.
If it did cause damage nobody would ever be able to wheel in places like Moab.
Every Jeep I’ve taken to Moab was shifted to 4 low and had the rear locker engaged as soon as I left the pavement and stayed that way until I was off the trail.
And the traction on Moab’s slickrock is incredible, probably equal or better than asphalt

 

[J0E]

4 low hit 50 MPH? Plenty of us? Routinely? Interesting!
Not sure why and what your set up is, but here are some reference:

For 37" tires + 4.10 gear + 4:1 Tcase to do 50MPH in 4 Low
8AT would be 7th gear at 6500rpm, or 8th gear at 5000rpm
6MT would be 5th gear at 6300rpm, or 6th gear at 5500rpm

For 37" tires + 5.13 gear + 4:1 Tcase to do 50MPH in 4 Low
8AT would be 8th gear at 6400rpm
6MT would be impossible.

See my bt39.com/GearWheelSpeed for actuals. I have 4.10 gears, not 5.13. And as you say, the 2.0 T has a 6,500 redline although I've never pushed it past 5,500. If I had 5.13's I wouldn't go 50 in low range.

4 low hit 50 MPH? Plenty of us? Routinely? Interesting!

Why would you routinely do that?

Drag races in sand. Ask @wibornz The point isn't going 5,200 RPM in 8th which is fine, the point is the manual is such nonsense setting the limit at 25 MPH.

I think I have been close to 50 mph in 4lo on the sand dunes. It is better to get the speed up for the bigger climbs and manually downshift as you climb.

 

[jeepoch]

@AVGeek99,

Chris,

That's what this forum is for, asking questions (or replying to them).

I drive a 2019 Sport so no lockers for me, at least not until I add a mod to install them. But I do depend on the Brake Lock Differential all the time (no other choice). But they work pretty damn well, or rather they work as long as you try and maintain traction. With pure open diffs, you require at least one full axle to not be slipping (both wheels) in order to maintain momentum. On fully locked axles, you only need one gripping tire (big difference in capability).

However, with BLD you really don't have true open diffs. It's certainly not as good as lockers but definitely better than nothing. In fact way better than nothing. For those Rubicon jocks that simply push the little button and lock em up at first blush, they're simply not understanding all the physics involved.

A really great Jeeper uses the lockers only when needed. But of course that is very subjective. Difficult terrain requires some expertise. Lockers just require a little less of it. Even then lockers aren't full-proof. Minimal applied torque to minimize wheel slip is way more advantages than just gunning the throttle. But lockers tend to still work at high rpm because you only need one gripping wheel. Maybe most who favor muscling their way through anything came from the JK or prior world before BLD was implemented.

Regardless, open diffs were invented to allow cars to easily turn without wheel slip (or bounce). Also recall, when in 4High or Low, you still have open diffs until the lockers are engaged. The only difference between 2wd and any 4wd mode is whether the front axle is powered. When turning in 4wd on open diffs it's much more of the force vectors between the front and rear axles causing wheel slip during natural cornering.

On locked axles, you loose all of the purpose in what open diffs provide, easy turning. Therefore to be a traction purist (whether on or off road) lockers should only be used while going straight. Of course, this isn't always practical, but any time while turning on a locked axle you're creating slippage from force vectors other than simply the coefficient of friction with the terrain. One can therefore compellingly point out that in these specific circumstances BLD is much more beneficial than lockers.

You JLR pilots have the best of both worlds. You can use both to you're advantage. It's just a matter of knowledge to know when to use either.

Furthermore, I agree it sounds like you encountered a fouled wheel speed sensor. BLD only kicks in if it sees a difference in rotational speeds between the wheels on the same axle. For reference Traction Control (TC) monitors all four wheels in an attempt to keep the vehicle going straight. Whereas BLD works independently all the time (unless overridden by TC), with it's only primary function to apply the brakes on the wheel that's spinning faster than the other on the same axle. This then allows more torque to be applied to the non slipping (gripping) wheel. Again recall on a true open diff (without BLD) the slipping wheel gets most of the applied torque, thereby exacerbating the problem.

BLD is a wonderful feature and should be used like any other tool in your toolbox.

Lastly, did you happen to capture the exact diagnostic codes when your 4wd and TC fault messages occured? If so, the speed sensor faults should make things obvious. If not it makes perfect sense that a dysfunctional speed sensor produced all the observed behaviors. Either way, the dealership can still read the fault history via the Engine Controller's 'Telltale' functionality. Something similar to an aircraft's 'blackbox'. They'll know whether a speed sensor was ever in the mix for the detected malfunctions. But as in black boxes, the history memory is limited. So the longer you wait, this particular event may eventually soon be overwritten.

So even if it's now working, have them check it out while you're still within warranty. They certainly make a profit by replacing things that do indicate a problem. By experiencing 4wd and TC faults, you certainly have potentially suspicious hardware.

[Edit]
Check this video out from @Rodeoflyer:
https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/4wd-or-not.102342/page-5#post-2172737

Jay

 

[AVGeek99]

Thanks for the detailed response Jay! Everything you said makes sense.

My warning lights issues went away as quickly as they started. Something definitely wasn't woriking right be cuase the BLD was engaging driving in a straight line with no wheel slippage. The only reason I had it in 4Lo at the time was becuase it was too rocky/bumpy to drive with the transfer case in high range.

I guess I'm luck my problems started the last 1/4 milie of the trail. It may have gotten interesting if I was out in the middle of the trail. I have a Tazer JL, but I never actually checked the codes. None of the warning lights have returned since, but I will check the codes right away if they come back unexpectedly.

Thanks again!!

 

[Dyolfknip74]

You posted:



I replied:



You patronizingly say

Yet you don't know that it says limit max speed in 4 Low to 25 MPH, which is absurd as the same instructions are in the Ruby and non-Ruby. Some pencil head wrote that 40 years ago and they've never thought about it or updated it.

And the manual is the same for every model, despite the fact many different gear ratios.





LOL, you need to reread

Sigh, I still think you're talking nonsense but whatever man.

50mph in 4lo? .......

 

[dragoneggs]

Plenty of us routinely hit 50 MPH in our Rubicons in 4 low. But then, we do full lock turns on hard rock in 4 low.

Plenty of us? Waiting for just one other of us to jump on your one man bandwagon. Hope they chime in.

And another question... why?

I guess I'm not sure if you are being facetious or what?

 

[J0E]

Plenty of us? Waiting for just one other of us to jump on your one man bandwagon. Hope they chime in.

And another question... why?

I guess I'm not sure if you are being facetious or what?

I guess you have trouble reading. See this post, repeated here

Ask @wibornz The point isn't going 5,200 RPM in 8th which is fine, the point is the manual is such nonsense setting the limit at 25 MPH.

I think I have been close to 50 mph in 4lo on the sand dunes. It is better to get the speed up for the bigger climbs and manually downshift as you climb.

 

[J0E]

@AVGeek99,
For those Rubicon jocks that simply push the little button and lock em up at first blush, they're simply not understanding all the physics involved.

A non locker guy who doesn't have lockers and obviously doesn't wheel with Rubies or read the Ruby wheeling posts in the forum. All the Rubies I wheel with and all the threads I've read in this forum use lockers sparely.

@AVGeek99,
Minimal applied torque to minimize wheel slip is way more advantages than just gunning the throttle.

Try that on this hill

When turning in 4wd on open diffs it's much more of the force vectors between the front and rear axles causing wheel slip during natural cornering.

On locked axles, you loose all of the purpose in what open diffs provide, easy turning. Therefore to be a traction purist (whether on or off road) lockers should only be used while going straight. Of course, this isn't always practical, but any time while turning on a locked axle you're creating slippage from force vectors other than simply the coefficient of friction with the terrain. One can therefore compellingly point out that in these specific circumstances BLD is much more beneficial than lockers.

Therefore to be a traction purist (whether on or off road) lockers should only be used while going straight.

Double LOL. Going straight you have different tire rotations unless the both wheels on the axle magically have identical terrane change. That's so funny, only used while going straight.

And this force vector BS, you don't need a tensor operator, partial differential equations, horizontal, vertical components. There's no differential in the the transfer case to account for the differential rotation of the tires. That's all it is.

When turning in 4wd on open diffs it's much more of the force vectors between the front and rear axles causing wheel slip during natural cornering.

No, it's the front and rear driveshafts spinning at identical rates and a difference in the tires on the front/rear axles that can't be compensated within the axle differential.

On locked axles, you loose all of the purpose in what open diffs provide, easy turning. Therefore to be a traction purist (whether on or off road) lockers should only be used while going straight. Of course, this isn't always practical, but any time while turning on a locked axle you're creating slippage from force vectors other than simply the coefficient of friction with the terrain. One can therefore compellingly point out that in these specific circumstances BLD is much more beneficial than lockers.

Compelling to whom? Per the experts at rr4w.com/ratings.cfm 7 and higher require lockers. No mention that BLD is superior to lockers.

Try climbing a tree stump. Trivial with a Ruby in M1. Try that without lockers. The stump wheel pushes on the stump from the driving wheels, it doesn't climb.

 

[dragoneggs]

I guess you have trouble reading. See this post, repeated here

Ask @wibornz The point isn't going 5,200 RPM in 8th which is fine, the point is the manual is such nonsense setting the limit at 25 MPH.

Okay thanks J0e... I guess I do have trouble reading. I routinely have this problem. Plenty of us apparently. No ill wishes... just trying to relate.

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