multicam

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Do you really carry 30 gallons of extra fuel and ~300 extra lbs when you go wheeling?
No, more than likely I’m only carrying 1 or 2 cans. But I’m not just going out to run a trail; I spend days in the desert and don’t want to mess around with some generator.

 

Zandcwhite

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No, more than likely I’m only carrying 1 or 2 cans. But I’m not just going out to run a trail; I spend days in the desert and don’t want to mess around with some generator.
No vehicle will suit everyones needs, but for the vast majority of people 150 miles is more than enough for their typical use and very few would ever need more than 300 miles of range. Even Spending days in the desert it will be pretty rare that you travel more than 300 miles. For a vehicle that will be in remote locations/used for camping/ often off grid, I’d like to see solar incorporated. You won’t fit enough solar on the roof and hood to commute every day, but 1kw is easily doable. That would give you ~14kwh per day in the summer time, or another 20 miles of range. It would definitely ease the range anxiety of taking an EV to a remote location if it would fully recharge itself in a week if need be. How awesome would it be to show up at camp with half a tank of fuel, camp for 3-4 days, and leave with a full tank?
 

multicam

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No vehicle will suit everyones needs, but for the vast majority of people 150 miles is more than enough for their typical use and very few would ever need more than 300 miles of range. Even Spending days in the desert it will be pretty rare that you travel more than 300 miles. For a vehicle that will be in remote locations/used for camping/ often off grid, I’d like to see solar incorporated. You won’t fit enough solar on the roof and hood to commute every day, but 1kw is easily doable. That would give you ~14kwh per day in the summer time, or another 20 miles of range. It would definitely ease the range anxiety of taking an EV to a remote location if it would fully recharge itself in a week if need be. How awesome would it be to show up at camp with half a tank of fuel, camp for 3-4 days, and leave with a full tank?
That’s fine and I’m sure it works for some people but it just doesn’t for me, and won’t for a long time. We haven’t even mentioned the real reason I can’t get an EV… towing thousands of pounds for hundreds of miles a day. Sometimes in sub-30* temps, sometimes in 115* temps, almost always up or downhill. You know…. The big leagues.
 

Toycrusher

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That’s fine and I’m sure it works for some people but it just doesn’t for me, and won’t for a long time. We haven’t even mentioned the real reason I can’t get an EV… towing thousands of pounds for hundreds of miles a day. Sometimes in sub-30* temps, sometimes in 115* temps, almost always up or downhill. You know…. The big leagues.
Towing is murder on a battery.

I burn around 1.65 kw (gasoline equivalent) per mile empty and 3.66 kw per mile towing 2500 lbs, a 221% increase.
But our 18 gallon tank holds about 600 kw of fuel so it's no big deal.

A really good electric motor in a JL might burn just .66 kw of juice in a mile empty, for a range of 150 miles or so on a 100kw battery.
But towing, it's still gonna suck down 1.5kw per mile, or about 67 miles of range.

There is no battery breakthrough on the horizon that would open up EVs to towing applications. It's simply not going to happen.
 

multicam

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Towing is murder on a battery.

I burn around 1.65 kw (gasoline equivalent) per mile empty and 3.66 kw per mile towing 2500 lbs, a 221% increase.
But our 18 gallon tank holds about 600 kw of fuel so it's no big deal.

A really good electric motor in a JL might burn just .66 kw of juice in a mile empty, for a range of 150 miles or so on a 100kw battery.
But towing, it's still gonna suck down 1.5kw per mile, or about 67 miles of range.

There is no battery breakthrough on the horizon that would open up EVs to towing applications. It's simply not going to happen.
This is what I’m saying… I use both my vehicles for towing and I’ll throw 5 gallon jerrycans in the towed trailer.
 


FinnCustomKnives

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I guess it depends on how you define parity. I’d say range is the ultimate measure of parity over total energy capacity. The efficiency of a BEV means it simply needs far less stored energy to accomplish the same range. A JL has an effective range of ~320 miles. There are many EV’s on the market that far exceed that. If the parity already exists, I’d say arguing that it won’t happen is simply burying your head in the sand for the sake of being resistant to change. All Jeep has to do is drop the hold over ICE layout of front engine/trans/transfer case and go motor on axle and there’s enough room between the body and frame to fit a 130kwh battery pack in the current set up that would get its range close to if not exceeding the current gas models.
Not sure how those numbers add up, hear me out. The 4xe gets 25 miles electric propulsion, or about 3 miles when in 4low while using the jeep for what it was intended for, under the absolute best case scenario out of a 17kwh pack. Multiple that by 10, which is much larger than a 130kwh pack, and you net 250 miles under absolute best case scenario or about 30 miles in 4 low while climbing. True the BEV wouldn't have the ICE drivetrain's weight to haul around but every single bit of that weight drop and quite a bit more would be replaced by the weight of the battery pack considering the 17kwh battery in the 4xe weighs about 200 pounds. Going direct drive would boost the numbers a little, but if going with the design of the concept shown that is not the case. All of said range estimates being substantially less in cold, hot, offroad, towing, etc.
Also keep in mind you just simply can not look at other evs for the range estimates and the kwh capacity of their battery pack considering none of them have the aero of literal bricks like the Wrangler and almost none are rolling on heavy and large diameter offroad tires. The closest example would be the Rivian R1T, which has much better aero, and even that has shown how abysmal the range is when you start to strain it at all beyond grocery getter duty. The rivian's 150ish mile range, from a 135kwh pack, towing only a 3500lb trailer is absolutely awful. Not to mention it takes quite a while, considering the pack's size, to replenish via charging.

Now once advancements in the energy density of cells increase it is a different conversation, but we just aren't there yet. I for one am quite weary of taking my jeep where I do when offroading, and having such little available energy/range. Hell out in Moab when it's 110°, 130° in the canyons, I fill up and still have jerry cans at the ready. FWIW getting Moab for me and quite a bit of the USA is also a 1750ish mile drive which is a whole other ball of wax with BEV's. Trails like Hole in the Rock would be all but impossible with a BEV jeep, unless we make large steps forward. For mall crawlers and DD's it will be fine. However for those of us who truly use our Jeeps for their intended purposes we are quite a ways off from the end zone so to say IMO of course.
 
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Zandcwhite

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towing thousands of pounds for hundreds of miles a day. Sometimes in sub-30* temps, sometimes in 115* temps, almost always up or downhill. You know…. The big leagues.
I hope to God you’re towing with something other than a JL or a 4Runner if you can even say “The big leagues“ with a straight face. The rivian will literally tow more than a 4Runner and 2 JL’s combined…but you’ll lose half the range. Guess what happens to the range in my ram when I put the Jeep on the trailer…it drops below 200 miles as I average 8mpg.
 

Zandcwhite

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Not sure how those numbers add up, hear me out. The 4xe gets 25 miles electric propulsion, or about 3 miles when in 4low while using the jeep for what it was intended for, under the absolute best case scenario out of a 17kwh pack. Multiple that by 10, which is much larger than a 130kwh pack, and you net 250 miles under absolute best case scenario or about 30 miles in 4 low while climbing. True the BEV wouldn't have the ICE drivetrain's weight to haul around but every single bit of that weight drop and quite a bit more would be replaced by the weight of the battery pack considering the 17kwh battery in the 4xe weighs about 200 pounds. Going direct drive would boost the numbers a little, but if going with the design of the concept shown that is not the case. All of said range estimates being substantially less in cold, hot, offroad, towing, etc.
Also keep in mind you just simply can not look at other evs for the range estimates and the kwh capacity of their battery pack considering none of them have the aero of literal bricks like the Wrangler and almost none are rolling on heavy and large diameter offroad tires. The closest example would be the Rivian R1T, which has much better aero, and even that has shown how abysmal the range is when you start to strain it at all beyond grocery getter duty. The rivian's 150ish mile range, from a 135kwh pack, towing only a 3500lb trailer is absolutely awful. Not to mention it takes quite a while, considering the pack's size, to replenish via charging.

Now once advancements in the energy density of cells increase it is a different conversation, but we just aren't there yet. I for one am quite weary of taking my jeep where I do when offroading, and having such little available energy/range. Hell out in Moab when it's 110°, 130° in the canyons, I fill up and still have jerry cans at the ready. FWIW getting Moab for me and quite a bit of the USA is also a 1750ish mile drive which is a whole other ball of wax with BEV's. Trails like Hole in the Rock would be all but impossible with a BEV jeep, unless we make large steps forward. For mall crawlers and DD's it will be fine. However for those of us who truly use our Jeeps for their intended purposes we are quite a ways off from the end zone so to say IMO of course.
The 3 mile range estimate is about 1/3 of what I’ve seen in multiple real world trail tests. I’d say 10 miles of range is more realistic in 4LO from the 4xe. If it’s set up like a rivian with direct drive, they are only seeing about a 25% reduction on tight, technical trails. The R1T will do 314 miles on road and 220 off road with the 135kwh battery. The 181kwh battery available next year will push those numbers past 400 on road and 300 off road. There’s no reason a wrangler couldn’t copy that formula and be in production within 3 years.
 

multicam

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I hope to God you’re towing with something other than a JL or a 4Runner if you can even say “The big leagues“ with a straight face. The rivian will literally tow more than a 4Runner and 2 JL’s combined…but you’ll lose half the range. Guess what happens to the range in my ram when I put the Jeep on the trailer…it drops below 200 miles as I average 8mpg.
Um… yeah, exactly. And how long does it take to replenish the rivian’s range? 5 minutes? No? And can you can do it at any exit without using an app to find a charge point…?

yeah, towing anything - period - is the big leagues as far as EVs are concerned.

I’m not sure what your point is.
 


zakaron

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Give the industry 6-7 years to make solid state batteries more mainstream and I think there will be more adoption in using EVs off road. A lot higher energy density, faster recharge times, longer lasting, and virtually fire proof. Still may not appeal to everyone, but I’m interested to see where they take this Magneto concept.
 

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Give the industry 6-7 years to make solid state batteries more mainstream and I think there will be more adoption in using EVs off road. A lot higher energy density, faster recharge times, longer lasting, and virtually fire proof. Still may not appeal to everyone, but I’m interested to see where they take this Magneto concept.
So far solid state batteries aren't even ready for hearing aids or remote controls. The hurdles involved in scaling it to an automotive size, not to mention safety and durability, may never be overcome. I really really want a Magneto 2.0, but it may never become a feasible offering
 

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Um… yeah, exactly. And how long does it take to replenish the rivian’s range? 5 minutes? No? And can you can do it at any exit without using an app to find a charge point…?

yeah, towing anything - period - is the big leagues as far as EVs are concerned.

I’m not sure what your point is.
10-15 minutes is all you need (get the fastest charging speed out of your session and move on) . Any exit? No, but there are TON of charges in the US already and you really shouldn't have an issue going anywhere.

Biggest issue with towing is HOW our charging stations are set up. Most of them are in malls or Walmart parking lots. How do you charge without unhitching? Do able, but a huge PITA and unfortunately nobody is working on solving that problem, yet.

I sold my rav to order a v6 wrangler. I thought REALLY hard about getting a Kia ev6 for our towing car (my daily is already an old leaf).

Electric motors can handle towing better than gas or diesel engines, but battery performance and infrastructure (for me) are not quite there.

That said... It's not as bad as people are making it out to be. And it will get better. If you're worried about stopping for 15 minutes on a 500 mile drive, I think you're nuts. I can usually last 2-3 hours tops before needing a break.
 

multicam

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10-15 minutes is all you need (get the fastest charging speed out of your session and move on) . Any exit? No, but there are TON of charges in the US already and you really shouldn't have an issue going anywhere.

Biggest issue with towing is HOW our charging stations are set up. Most of them are in malls or Walmart parking lots. How do you charge without unhitching? Do able, but a huge PITA and unfortunately nobody is working on solving that problem, yet.

I sold my rav to order a v6 wrangler. I thought REALLY hard about getting a Kia ev6 for our towing car (my daily is already an old leaf).

Electric motors can handle towing better than gas or diesel engines, but battery performance and infrastructure (for me) are not quite there.

That said... It's not as bad as people are making it out to be. And it will get better. If you're worried about stopping for 15 minutes on a 500 mile drive, I think you're nuts. I can usually last 2-3 hours tops before needing a break.
I used to routinely (4 or more times a year) make the trip below in less than six hours with one passenger, two 70 lbs dogs, towing a 2600-2800 lbs trailer. That’s less than six hours from door-to-door. One stop, which probably took 10 minutes.

Please explain to me in what universe this is even remotely close to possible with any EV available today.

918BA8AE-3206-4FE6-B9C6-55CDC9FF8F7E.jpeg
 

Randy Marion CDJR
 
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