Ebay Rubi Steel Bumper (not a knock-off) pretty legit!

[PyrPatriot]

The bumper and lights are made in China. It’s probably the exact same factory, selling an unbranded version. Perhaps it was designed in America, but as someone else pointed out, if this factory can afford to make this bumper and profit off it even with free shipping, Mopar is making a killing and passing none of it to the consumer. I also understand developing IP costs something, but the bumper costs half what Mopar charges. It’s pretty clear they should be more reasonable with their pricing. It’s not even made here.

Just because you dont like something costing something dorsnt mean you should steal from the person who owns it

@JeepCares maybe pass along this listing to HQ? Get the product banned from import? I know FCA has utility and design patents on their bumpers. Edit: I would like to know if this is a legitimate product or theft of our beloved Jeep's rights

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[2020JLURUBICON]

Just because you dont like something costing something dorsnt mean you should steal from the person who owns it

@JeepCares maybe pass along this listing to HQ? Get the product banned from import? I know FCA has utility and design patents on their bumpers.

not sure what you hope to accomplish here. FCA will still import the part from China! Do you shop at Walmart? Do you buy imported TVs and electronics? The answer is yes, because nothing is made in the us anymore. Everyone wants $1 price tags with $100 wages. Only way to do that is import practically everything. Sure we can make everything in the US, but that will require significantly higher prices, and you would complain about that too. Sad truth is we have brought the current situation upon ourselves. Only people that buy nothing that is imported have a leg to stand on in the debate you are creating.

 

[hoag4147]

OK cool thanks. If I wanted to use the stock LEDs, docyou know if that is possible?

If same mounting arrangement factory steel bumper you will need this type of bracket to make stock Rubicon plastic bumper LEDs work.

XJMOTO 4 inch LED Fog Light Front Bumper Mounting Brackets Adapter for 2013-2018 Jeep Wrangler Hard Rock Rubicon X,10th Anniversary Editions,75th Anniversary Edition https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SNSHVFK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_cTB3EbYVQXY5Z

 

[PyrPatriot]

not sure what you hope to accomplish here. FCA will still import the part from China! Do you shop at Walmart? Do you buy imported TVs and electronics? The answer is yes, because nothing is made in the us anymore. Everyone wants $1 price tags with $100 wages. Only way to do that is import practically everything. Sure we can make everything in the US, but that will require significantly higher prices, and you would complain about that too. Sad truth is we have brought the current situation upon ourselves. Only people that buy nothing that is imported have a leg to stand on in the debate you are creating.

The items sold at Walmarts and such that come from China are LICENSED by the owners of the IP to be sold here.

Here is the scenario more simply put: I design/invent something. I license a company in China to make it only for me, export it to the US, and have another company here have a license to sell my product. They get money, I get money, from the sales. I worked hard to invent the thing after all. Now, say someone else goes to that factory in China and pays them some money for “surplus” product they were not authorized to make. That is product that could be sold here under licensing I grant and make me money. But it doesnt. Someone is selling it without paying me royalties. And folks who sell, and buy, these knockoffs, are stealing my invention, and my due money. They are both thieves. Plain and simple

My hope, ideally, is that FCA notices, stops these from being imported through the US Border and Custom, and sues the folks selling these. Then, because folks bought illegal product, the government sends a nice letter to the buyers (through the siezure of the seller’s records) saying buyers have to forfeit their illegal goods. No compensation. If the buyer wants recovery, sue the seller.

Ideally. It has been done with other products. And easily done here, all these were sold using digital records.

And yes, this route is how stolen IP is stopped and illicit product is destroyed, and buyers are discouraged from buying knockoffs.


Edit to clarify: this listing LOOKS like it's a stolen knockoff. I am highly suspicious of it being legit and want clarification because I like Jeep and don't want the company harmed by having their intellectual property stolen

 

[2020JLURUBICON]

The items sold at Walmarts and such that come from China are LICENSED by the owners of the IP to be sold here.

Here is the scenario more simply put: I design/invent something. I license a company in China to make it only for me, export it to the US, and have another company here have a license to sell my product. They get money, I get money, from the sales. I worked hard to invent the thing after all. Now, say someone else goes to that factory in China and pays them some money for “surplus” product they were not authorized to make. That is product that could be sold here under licensing I grant and make me money. But it doesnt. Someone is selling it without paying me royalties. And folks who sell, and buy, these knockoffs, are stealing my invention, and my due money. They are both thieves. Plain and simple

My hope, ideally, is that FCA notices, stops these from being imported through the US Border and Custom, and sues the folks selling these. Then, because folks bought illegal product, the government sends a nice letter to the buyers (through the siezure of the seller’s records) saying buyers have to forfeit their illegal goods. No compensation. If the buyer wants recovery, sue the seller.

Ideally. It has been done with other products. And easily done here, all these were sold using digital records.

And yes, this route is how stolen IP is stopped and illicit product is destroyed, and buyers are discouraged from buying knockoffs.

more power to you sir.

 

[2020JLURUBICON]

If same mounting arrangement factory steel bumper you will need this type of bracket to make stock Rubicon plastic bumper LEDs work.

XJMOTO 4 inch LED Fog Light Front Bumper Mounting Brackets Adapter for 2013-2018 Jeep Wrangler Hard Rock Rubicon X,10th Anniversary Editions,75th Anniversary Edition https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SNSHVFK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_cTB3EbYVQXY5Z

thank you hoag4147!

 

[LooselyHeldPlans]

The items sold at Walmarts and such that come from China are LICENSED by the owners of the IP to be sold here.

Here is the scenario more simply put: I design/invent something. I license a company in China to make it only for me, export it to the US, and have another company here have a license to sell my product. They get money, I get money, from the sales. I worked hard to invent the thing after all. Now, say someone else goes to that factory in China and pays them some money for “surplus” product they were not authorized to make. That is product that could be sold here under licensing I grant and make me money. But it doesnt. Someone is selling it without paying me royalties. And folks who sell, and buy, these knockoffs, are stealing my invention, and my due money. They are both thieves. Plain and simple

My hope, ideally, is that FCA notices, stops these from being imported through the US Border and Custom, and sues the folks selling these. Then, because folks bought illegal product, the government sends a nice letter to the buyers (through the siezure of the seller’s records) saying buyers have to forfeit their illegal goods. No compensation. If the buyer wants recovery, sue the seller.

Ideally. It has been done with other products. And easily done here, all these were sold using digital records.

And yes, this route is how stolen IP is stopped and illicit product is destroyed, and buyers are discouraged from buying knockoffs.

Wow, you seem like a fun guy.

 

[Arterius2]

I appreciate the updated information. Crash worthiness and quality of finish are still concerns.

In terms of crash worthiness, your air bag will deploy regardless of the crush cans. And to be fair, most aftermarket bumpers, even ones from reputable brands, will not have those crush cans.

 

[Cyclrder]

The MOPAR bumpers (and probably this one) who have the “crash cans” give just a little extra absorption of crash energy that actually saves both the Jeep and the car you hit.
I don’t think people understand that putting an “off road only” steel bumper could open you up to a liability in case of an accident that could be pretty serious if a savvy lawyer gets involved...

 

[davidafuller]

Just because you dont like something costing something dorsnt mean you should steal from the person who owns it

@JeepCares maybe pass along this listing to HQ? Get the product banned from import? I know FCA has utility and design patents on their bumpers.

Here is the scenario more simply put: I design/invent something. I license a company in China to make it only for me, export it to the US, and have another company here have a license to sell my product. They get money, I get money, from the sales. I worked hard to invent the thing after all. Now, say someone else goes to that factory in China and pays them some money for “surplus” product they were not authorized to make. That is product that could be sold here under licensing I grant and make me money. But it doesnt. Someone is selling it without paying me royalties. And folks who sell, and buy, these knockoffs, are stealing my invention, and my due money. They are both thieves. Plain and simple

I wasn't aware you had read the license agreement between Jeep and the Chinese factory(ies) making the bumper, nor that you knew the Chinese factory wasn't simply a PE or owned by a subsidiary or joint venture of Jeep.

Even if that's not the case, pending information to the contrary, what they're doing is completely legal. You can't get the product banned from import if Jeep simply has a bad contract or missed protecting some of the loopholes. Am I advocating for Chinese companies to steal American IP? Not at all. But maybe Mopar should be manufacturing on our own shores if they want to avoid this issue. And companies (American companies, too) steal ideas all the time. They steal IP from other American companies, and they steal from foreign companies. As long as it's legal, it's always been fair.

This is an interesting article that describes the type of thing that could be going on. And if this is the situation in which Jeep finds themselves, that's on them for bad business.

https://www.chinalawblog.com/2017/0...ct-to-others-dont-let-this-happen-to-you.html

 

[PyrPatriot]

I wasn't aware you had read the license agreement between Jeep and the Chinese factory(ies) making the bumper, nor that you knew the Chinese factory wasn't simply a PE or owned by a subsidiary or joint venture of Jeep.

Even if that's not the case, pending information to the contrary, what they're doing is completely legal. You can't get the product banned from import if Jeep simply has a bad contract or missed protecting some of the loopholes. Am I advocating for Chinese companies to steal American IP? Not at all. But maybe Mopar should be manufacturing on our own shores if they want to avoid this issue. And companies (American companies, too) steal ideas all the time. They steal IP from other American companies, and they steal from foreign companies. As long as it's legal, it's always been fair.

This is an interesting article that describes the type of thing that could be going on. And if this is the situation in which Jeep finds themselves, that's on them for bad business.

https://www.chinalawblog.com/2017/0...ct-to-others-dont-let-this-happen-to-you.html

I don't have a licensing agreement with Jeep at all. I didn't make or design the bumper. But, I do respect a company's IP rights. How do you know what this ebay seller is doing is completely legal? When solvent traps were being sold state side, but really being used to make homemade suppressors, or pieces of plastic to make Glocks full-auto, the ATF deemed it illegal (something they should have 0 authority to do in my opinion), and worked at taking all the imports back, blocking future products from coming in, etc.


I agree Jeep should be making their products state side. And the JL/JT/Cherokee lines are something like 80% parts made and 93% assembled in the US.

I don't condone anyone stealing IP, from anywhere. Just like I don't condone people here contributing to the theft of Jeep's IP. China will continue to steal IP and sell cheap product as long as people like those buying these bumpers will continue to buy knockoffs to save some bucks, putting what they WANT (get it cheap) over what is the right thing to do (not steal).

I am VERY well aware how companies can prevent IP theft and what they can do to mitigate it. Going after the sellers and buyers is a great way. It has had a lot of success in the tech and fashion industry. Will China ever stop? Probably not, though Trump is doing a great job at mitigating the harm. What will help it more is if people see a knockoff, and report it to the company who likely owns the rights, and at least make them aware of the product, check to see if it is legit. If it is not, don't buy it and hopefully companies like Jeep will go and review their business partners, file some lawsuits, put some scumbags out of business.

ETA: I would be shocked if FCA has an agreement that allows their products to be sold on the side by others WITHOUT allowing to say "Jeep" somewhere. The listing saying "unbranded" and the like makes me highly suspect IP theft

 

[davidafuller]

Respectfully:

All I'm saying is that we don't know that what this factory is doing is illegal. The way you're wording this makes it sound like there is no way their actions are legal. What I sent in that article (and countless others) make it clear that it could very well BE legal, and that FCA just did a poor job wording and/or negotiating the contract due to poor understanding of Chinese law. There might be no recourse depending on how that contract is written and who has legal jurisdiction to review the situation or make judgment thereon. That's all I'm trying to say. It's not a foregone conclusion that they're an FCA investigation away from going out of business, and it's not necessarily guaranteed that they have some ability to ban import simply by doing some due diligence.

And truthfully, given the fact they've already sold 90+ of these things via eBay, it would surprise me if FCA has no knowledge of the two listings. So it would also not surprise me if they have no legal recourse to shut down the listings, and instead simply need to do a better job of negotiating a better contract once this one expires (and/or retain a better lawyer who is versed in Chinese law if they continue to source their labor there).

I'm glad Jeep makes most of their vehicles here in the US. But I think it's not unreasonable to say that if FCA is willing to save a few bucks by having China product their products, American consumers should be willing to save a few bucks by legally purchasing unbranded replicas. I agree that stealing IP (especially American IP) is generally bad. But if I can get the same product for literally half the cost, brand new, and can do so legally (which, to my knowledge, is the case)? I'm not a bad person for taking advantage of that situation much like Mopar takes advantage of us. Too many people make businesses out to be the good guys and consumers the bad guys in these situations. If FCA made the bumpers here, there wouldn't be a problem; therefore, they're putting profit above consumers. Consumers every right to do the same to FCA.

If it's illegally produced and sold? Sure, I agree with you. But we don't know that. Also kind of unfair to suggest we should have our bumpers seized and unreimbursed when, again, we haven't established (and can't) that this is an illegal enterprise.

 

[PyrPatriot]

Respectfully:

All I'm saying is that we don't know that what this factory is doing is illegal. The way you're wording this makes it sound like there is no way their actions are legal. What I sent in that article (and countless others) make it clear that it could very well BE legal, and that FCA just did a poor job wording and/or negotiating the contract due to poor understanding of Chinese law. There might be no recourse depending on how that contract is written and who has legal jurisdiction to review the situation or make judgment thereon. That's all I'm trying to say. It's not a foregone conclusion that they're an FCA investigation away from going out of business, and it's not necessarily guaranteed that they have some ability to ban import simply by doing some due diligence.

And truthfully, given the fact they've already sold 90+ of these things via eBay, it would surprise me if FCA has no knowledge of the two listings. So it would also not surprise me if they have no legal recourse to shut down the listings, and instead simply need to do a better job of negotiating a better contract once this one expires (and/or retain a better lawyer who is versed in Chinese law if they continue to source their labor there).

I'm glad Jeep makes most of their vehicles here in the US. But I think it's not unreasonable to say that if FCA is willing to save a few bucks by having China product their products, American consumers should be willing to save a few bucks by legally purchasing unbranded replicas. I agree that stealing IP (especially American IP) is generally bad. But if I can get the same product for literally half the cost, brand new, and can do so legally (which, to my knowledge, is the case)? I'm not a bad person for taking advantage of that situation much like Mopar takes advantage of us. Too many people make businesses out to be the good guys and consumers the bad guys in these situations. If FCA made the bumpers here, there wouldn't be a problem; therefore, they're putting profit above consumers. Consumers every right to do the same to FCA.

If it's illegally produced and sold? Sure, I agree with you. But we don't know that. Also kind of unfair to suggest we should have our bumpers seized and unreimbursed when, again, we haven't established (and can't) that this is an illegal enterprise.

You make a fair point. I'll concede and edit my posts.

ETA: I stand by my statement regarding the seizures. It was asked what I hoped to accomplish with the post where I tagged @JeepCares. If they look into this seller (and others) and find that the product is not an authorized part and meets the standard of infringing their rights in the product/design (which they have an army of lawyers to do I bet), I want them to pursue the recourse available to them by law: stop the product from coming in state side, and get the product back from the market. It is my understanding that if a product is illegal in the US, like fake designer bags and clothing, the Federal government is within its rights to take back that property and the buyers have to sue the criminals importing the product and selling it. This is how you stop IP theft. Again, just because you don't like the price, does not mean you get to steal it. Looking for knockoffs is exactly what is done when that happens. Jeep spent money designing their bumper, contracting with companies to make and import it, they should be able to PROFIT on it as much as they want. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Buy an aftermarket one from a reputable company.

 

[davidafuller]

You make a fair point. I'll concede and edit my posts.

ETA: I stand by my statement regarding the seizures. It was asked what I hoped to accomplish with the post where I tagged @JeepCares. If they look into this seller (and others) and find that the product is not an authorized part and meets the standard of infringing their rights in the product/design (which they have an army of lawyers to do I bet), I want them to pursue the recourse available to them by law: stop the product from coming in state side, and get the product back from the market. It is my understanding that if a product is illegal in the US, like fake designer bags and clothing, the Federal government is within its rights to take back that property and the buyers have to sue the criminals importing the product and selling it. This is how you stop IP theft. Again, just because you don't like the price, does not mean you get to steal it. Looking for knockoffs is exactly what is done when that happens. Jeep spent money designing their bumper, contracting with companies to make and import it, they should be able to PROFIT on it as much as they want. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Buy an aftermarket one from a reputable company.

Also entirely fair. I think we both make good points, and I understand the seizure point. I figured consumer recourse was to sue the Chinese production company. Just respectfully disagree on some of the other economic aspects of the dealings. Be well.

 

[PyrPatriot]

Also entirely fair. I think we both make good points, and I understand the seizure point. I figured consumer recourse was to sue the Chinese production company. Just respectfully disagree on some of the other economic aspects of the dealings. Be well.

I am pleasantly surprised at how much I enjoyed the discussion and thank you for reminding me that how I interpret things I wish to convey may not come across that way when read by others. Shame you arent closer, we could go wheeling

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