MEHillwalker80
Well-Known Member
Whatever happens to humanity in this world. Always remember "Mother Nature always bats last".
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It is a legitimate question. Why the defense? I only see a graph. What region is this from? Is it nationally? Globally? Who gathered this information? Who published it? Which vaccine?doesn't really matter about before or after treatments....those stats don't change and those are from 8/15/21
98.6% hospitalization are unvaccinated
98.7% of all deaths are unvaccinated
I think its pretty safe to declare those facts. as of 8/15/21 those are the real numbers this is not a conspiracy
yet some people still refuse to believe the data that is in plain view and in black in white on just about every legit source's website....boggles my mind
I do not disagree with the general points you make - I get paid to be a skeptic (I'm a professional investor) and I sympathize with your desire to ask questions and challenge assumptions. A random chart from the internet with little in the way of notation or citation raises a few red flags for me personally, too.It is a legitimate question. Why the defense? I only see a graph. What region is this from? Is it nationally? Globally? Who gathered this information? Who published it? Which vaccine?
Sorry, but your opinion on information doesn’t matter anymore than anyone else’s. Never will.
I don’t see the logic in having a conspiracy other than money perhaps…objectively speaking.
What boggles the mind is trying to smash open conversation and questioning anything about vaccines created by companies with questionable histories in such a short time, we’ll meaning or not…if you would like to do your own background research rather than reading others’.
People should think things through rather than just take others’ words for it. If this was a more deadly virus, perhaps the odds would play in the favor taking more chances with ones health long term.
the FDA is expected to give fill approval next month....is that going to sway you?It is a legitimate question. Why the defense? I only see a graph. What region is this from? Is it nationally? Globally? Who gathered this information? Who published it? Which vaccine?
Sorry, but your opinion on information doesn’t matter anymore than anyone else’s. Never will.
I don’t see the logic in having a conspiracy other than money perhaps…objectively speaking.
What boggles the mind is trying to smash open conversation and questioning anything about vaccines created by companies with questionable histories in such a short time, we’ll meaning or not…if you would like to do your own background research rather than reading others’.
People should think things through rather than just take others’ words for it, especially since the facts of today might again be partially or totally wrong the next as has played out since the beginning. If this was a more deadly virus, perhaps the odds would play in the favor taking more chances with ones health long term. Especially with the Moderna mRNA vaccine (and any other like it) that the FDA wouldn’t approve prior to all of this. This isn’t really a vaccine that triggers an immune response but rather alters your genetics. Now, some geneticists /virologists believe future exposure beyond the vaccine could trigger an autoimmune response and the body attacking itself.
I’d just like to weigh options and see how things play out a bit longer. Seems reasonable to me.
What’s the current death rate? Can we get death rates for all CDC samples of virologic matter of current and past threats?I do not disagree with the general points you make - I get paid to be a skeptic (I'm a professional investor) and I sympathize with your desire to ask questions and challenge assumptions. A random chart from the internet with little in the way of notation or citation raises a few red flags for me personally, too.
But the smartest people I know in my life (my brother: 1590 SAT, went to college and medical school on academic scholarships, practices in a leading pediatric ICU; also my four doctors-turned-healthcare analysts who have so far correctly called three inflection points in the US infection rates for me at work) support vaccination unequivically. I have yet to meet anyone smarter than them who argues against it. Politicians, sure. Talking heads on TV, yes. But to say everyone's opinion should matter equally is what's called a false dichotomy and it plagues cable news (as well as Internet message boards). Eratosthenes proved the earth was round 2400 years ago yet flat earthers exist to this day. Their opinions are not and should not be considered equal.
Where I specialize - money, not healthcare policy - I can say with confidence that there is very little economic profit in vaccines. This is simply not where big pharmaceutical profits are made (although the sellers of raw materials and tools are doing very well). The vaccination site I went to was a bombed out KMart that has sat empty for a decade, and was staffed almost entirely by state employees and volunteers. It is (mostly) human altruism at a national and global scale.
To your latter points: viruses do mutate, and efficacy rates can attenuate (and can do so faster if populations fail to reach herd immunity). But if you believe in empiricism - why wouldn't you? - the data are public and available for anyone to see. Flat earthers are funny and harmless, but this is different. This virus has contributed to more Americans deaths in 1.5 years than all US military deaths in the HISTORY of our country. The human chain is only as strong as its weakest links. Try to be one of the strong ones.
It may if it is not the mRNA variant. See, nowadays critique is seemingly considered fighting. Actually, it’s part of the scientific process…from admitting and testing a new patient accurately to the outcome, recovery or death.the FDA is expected to give fill approval next month....is that going to sway you?
those are national numbers....not defensive, just curious as to why some try to fight those statistical facts?
its not just about the deaths, its also about the hospitals being overrun with covid patients in states and regions with low vaccination rates right now....
it's an individual choice, but those choices have consequences
Thanks! I've never thought I'd have so much fun just driving around! He got a black Mazda CX-5 fully loaded. He's a practical kinda guy . Although I do envy the air conditioned seats!Thank you for sharing! Glad to hear he’s doing better now. My wife had some symptoms a couple years ago that could have been a degenerative auto immune disease. Having end of life preparation conversations is absolutely no fun. Nice vehicle choice! What did he go with?
This is the last I will write about this, since this is not why people frequent this site and all these data are easily accessed elsewhere for those willing to look. The current trailing 28-day fatality rate rate is 67,000 deaths/week globally, and 14,000 deaths/week in the US. The cumulative US death toll of 625,000 includes two of my family members and three of my friends, and my father is currently sick. I have ten nephews and nieces who live in adjacent states to yours who are too young to receive the vaccine and are dependent on adults being responsible, since their local ICUs are 93% filled currently. These are the stats that matter most to me. I don't even know what you are asking in your second question.What’s the current death rate? Can we get death rates for all CDC samples of virologic matter of current and past threats?
Same here but about the big picture. I've been watching/hearing data of environmental issues since 1970. A nano second time period earth wise and things are very dismal looking. A Covid-19 variant might be Natures cure from humans. Folks don't seem to get their heads around that concept. IMHO, Enjoy life now.
I’m very sorry for your loss.This is the last I will write about this, since this is not why people frequent this site and all these data are easily accessed elsewhere for those willing to look. The current trailing 28-day fatality rate rate is 67,000 deaths/week globally, and 14,000 deaths/week in the US. The cumulative US death toll of 625,000 includes two of my family members and three of my friends, and my father is currently sick. I have ten nephews and nieces who live in adjacent states to yours who are too young to receive the vaccine and are dependent on adults being responsible, since their local ICUs are 93% filled currently. These are the stats that matter most to me. I don't even know what you are asking in your second question.
Not trying to tell you what to do but there are 3 assumptions in your comment above that are simply incorrect and if you're making a decision based on that, maybe worth reconsidering...........
What boggles the mind is trying to smash open conversation and questioning anything about vaccines created by companies with questionable histories in such a short time, well meaning or not…if you would like to do your own background research rather than reading others’.
People should think things through rather than just take others’ words for it, especially since the facts of today might again be partially or totally wrong the next as has played out since the beginning. If this was a more deadly virus, perhaps the odds would play in the favor taking more chances with ones health long term. Especially with the Moderna mRNA vaccine (and any other like it) that the FDA wouldn’t approve prior to all of this. This isn’t really a vaccine that triggers an immune response but rather alters your genetics. Now, some geneticists /virologists believe future exposure beyond the vaccine could trigger an autoimmune response and the body attacking itself.
I’d just like to weigh options and see how things play out a bit longer. Seems reasonable to me.
It does not edit your DNA. You’re correct. I didn’t say that. Not my area of expertise but you may want to research mRNA. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.htmlNot trying to tell you what to do but there are 3 assumptions in your comment above that are simply incorrect and if you're making a decision based on that, maybe worth reconsidering.
- The vaccine does not edit / change your DNA or screw with your genetics in any form at all
- The vaccine does trigger an immune response, it just doesn't use the weakened form of Covid to do so
- The FDA has never declined approval of an mRNA vaccine or treatment prior to Covid - the simple fact is that these vaccines are the first to be submitted for approval. Most mRNA work done prior was not for vaccines and it's been ongoing over the last decade. The reason the current ones have not been formally approved is that neither company had the data required to submit to allow the FDA to make the final approval - the contingent approvals have been based on data submitted that has been available to date, including trials conducted prior to the contingent approval.
On a side not, if you're doing a risk assessment, the odds are clearly in your favor if you get hit with Delta and you're vaccinated. The worst odds that I've seen in the US are from a small sample size in Wisconsin from this week. Odds of hospitalization 4 to 1 in your favor if vaccinated, odds of death 11 to 1. Every other sample has the odds at even higher rates here in the US. Easily searchable for verification.
Thanks for the response and a few points - you said that the vaccine alters your genetics. That means DNA. The surface of a cell where the proteins form is not altering your genetics. Could you also link the quoted medical device paragraph as clearly it notes a medical device as treatment and the vaccine is not that, in fact once you have an active case of Covid, no one will give you the shot.It does not edit your DNA. You’re correct. I didn’t say that. Not my area of expertise but you may want to research mRNA. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html
The concern with some scientists lies in repeated exposure over ones lifetime and concern the body could see itself as a threat at the RNA level. Interesting reading. It’s my understanding the FDA or Europe, repeatedly over decades, forbid the use of mRNA vaccines. Perhaps I’m incorrect and it was just Europe but it was one or both. The idea isn’t new, as admitted in this link…it’s just new to being allowed to move forward to sanctioned clinical trials and final approval.
>>> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html
It may be worth hearing critique of this given the rush and pressure to develop something to prevent sickness amongst a fearful population. One except I found particularly interesting in one critique I found. Perhaps people can fact check this as well. Seems technically correct.
“It is not a vaccine as defined by the CDC as “A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease.” Rather, it is an experimental and novel technology. By definition of the FDA as a component used as treatment to affect a body’s function, it is in fact a medical device, a physical device that comes in a molecular sized package. (See CDC link for what this article is referencing.) Erroneously referring to this intervention as a vaccine exploits the public's ingrained trust of the vaccination program to solicit knee jerk response and action. It keeps us entrenched in needless debate in place of taking the necessary measures to investigate the impact on our health.”
The FDA has allowed this to be dramatically rushed under immense pressure to “do something” and I’m not sure that fact has precedent. At this time, I’d consider the Johnson and Johnson vaccine over the mRNA treatment.
Again, It does not alter your DNA (Deoxyribonucleic acid) it does interact with your genetics to prompt it with mRNA to produce a spike (see the CDC link) that your body then attacks. Not a traditional immune response as it’s not a virus entering the cell. Concur? And the “device“ is not necessarily a machine >>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deviceThanks for the response and a few points - you said that the vaccine alters your genetics. That means DNA. The surface of a cell where the proteins form is not altering your genetics. Could you also link the quoted medical device paragraph as clearly it notes a medical device as treatment and the vaccine is not that, in fact once you have an active case of Covid, no one will give you the shot.
I don't disagree with the fact that this was done in considerably less time than a regular situation and both consumers and the medical community learned a lot along the way. Having said that, most of what you present to justify your position is simply incorrect or a misunderstanding of basic facts and the only reason to not get a vaccine today is if you're so concerned over what we don't know and could happen that you're willing to risk yourself and everyone in your physical circle. If that's the case, fine, just say it.
Last response on this as the thread intent is long gone and I try to keep this kind of stuff out of my daily life with people I don't know. Having said that, I can say that I'm really not concerned about your personal decision, but rather the repetitive nature of the misinformation that you elect to post. Using genetics to describe the nature of the vaccine is simply not accurate. Stating that mRNA was declined for approval in the past - not accurate. Mixing up medical devices and vaccines - not accurate. I'm cool with your body your decision - as long as you (not you personally but the combination of all of you who have elected to not get the shot AND not give a crap about anyone else) stay away from everyone else. Everyone has choices and choices have consequences - if it's not clear that on a macro level the decision you've made has implications for others I don't know what to tell you. I hope that this all works out for you and your friends and family and no one gets sick, or worse. All the best and hopefully I'll see you on a trail...Again, It does not alter your DNA (Deoxyribonucleic acid) it does interact with your genetics to prompt it with mRNA to produce a spike (see the CDC link) that your body then attacks. Not a traditional immune response as it’s not a virus entering the cell. Concur? And the “device“ is not necessarily a machine >>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/device
The critic is merely pointing to the fact it is not a traditional vaccination which people are familiar and comfortable with. Different conveyance hoping for the same outcome.
I have a position? Did you read all of my posts in their entirety or breeze over them itching to respond? Seems it might be the latter sir.
I am collecting information and doing my own research, willing to hear ALL options and opinions, including yours. Your response at the end there is a little hysterical. My body, my families’ bodies…not yours.
Calm down. It’s going to be ok.