Don’t die with your yacht in the driveway

[MEHillwalker80]

Whatever happens to humanity in this world. Always remember "Mother Nature always bats last".

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[DadJokes]

doesn't really matter about before or after treatments....those stats don't change and those are from 8/15/21

98.6% hospitalization are unvaccinated

98.7% of all deaths are unvaccinated

I think its pretty safe to declare those facts. as of 8/15/21 those are the real numbers this is not a conspiracy


yet some people still refuse to believe the data that is in plain view and in black in white on just about every legit source's website....boggles my mind

It is a legitimate question. Why the defense? I only see a graph. What region is this from? Is it nationally? Globally? Who gathered this information? Who published it? Which vaccine?

Sorry, but your opinion on information doesn’t matter anymore than anyone else’s. Never will.

I don’t see the logic in having a conspiracy other than money perhaps…objectively speaking.

What boggles the mind is trying to smash open conversation and questioning anything about vaccines created by companies with questionable histories in such a short time, well meaning or not…if you would like to do your own background research rather than reading others’.

People should think things through rather than just take others’ words for it, especially since the facts of today might again be partially or totally wrong the next as has played out since the beginning. If this was a more deadly virus, perhaps the odds would play in the favor taking more chances with ones health long term. Especially with the Moderna mRNA vaccine (and any other like it) that the FDA wouldn’t approve prior to all of this. This isn’t really a vaccine that triggers an immune response but rather alters your genetics. Now, some geneticists /virologists believe future exposure beyond the vaccine could trigger an autoimmune response and the body attacking itself.

I’d just like to weigh options and see how things play out a bit longer. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[csjlu]

It is a legitimate question. Why the defense? I only see a graph. What region is this from? Is it nationally? Globally? Who gathered this information? Who published it? Which vaccine?

Sorry, but your opinion on information doesn’t matter anymore than anyone else’s. Never will.

I don’t see the logic in having a conspiracy other than money perhaps…objectively speaking.

What boggles the mind is trying to smash open conversation and questioning anything about vaccines created by companies with questionable histories in such a short time, we’ll meaning or not…if you would like to do your own background research rather than reading others’.

People should think things through rather than just take others’ words for it. If this was a more deadly virus, perhaps the odds would play in the favor taking more chances with ones health long term.

I do not disagree with the general points you make - I get paid to be a skeptic (I'm a professional investor) and I sympathize with your desire to ask questions and challenge assumptions. A random chart from the internet with little in the way of notation or citation raises a few red flags for me personally, too.

But the smartest people I know in my life (my brother: 1590 SAT, went to college and medical school on academic scholarships, practices in a leading pediatric ICU; also my four doctors-turned-healthcare analysts who have so far correctly called three inflection points in the US infection rates for me at work) support vaccination unequivically. I have yet to meet anyone smarter than them who argues against it. Politicians, sure. Talking heads on TV, yes. But to say everyone's opinion should matter equally is what's called a false dichotomy and it plagues cable news (as well as Internet message boards). Eratosthenes proved the earth was round 2400 years ago yet flat earthers exist to this day. Their opinions are not and should not be considered equal.

Where I specialize - money, not healthcare policy - I can say with confidence that there is very little economic profit in vaccines. This is simply not where big pharmaceutical profits are made (although the sellers of raw materials and tools are doing very well). The vaccination site I went to was a bombed out KMart that has sat empty for a decade, and was staffed almost entirely by state employees and volunteers. It is (mostly) human altruism at a national and global scale.

To your latter points: viruses do mutate, and efficacy rates can attenuate (and can do so faster if populations fail to reach herd immunity). But if you believe in empiricism - why wouldn't you? - the data are public and available for anyone to see. Flat earthers are funny and harmless, but this is different. This virus has contributed to more Americans deaths in 1.5 years than all US military deaths in the HISTORY of our country. The human chain is only as strong as its weakest links. Try to be one of the strong ones.

 

[SoCal]

It is a legitimate question. Why the defense? I only see a graph. What region is this from? Is it nationally? Globally? Who gathered this information? Who published it? Which vaccine?

Sorry, but your opinion on information doesn’t matter anymore than anyone else’s. Never will.

I don’t see the logic in having a conspiracy other than money perhaps…objectively speaking.

What boggles the mind is trying to smash open conversation and questioning anything about vaccines created by companies with questionable histories in such a short time, we’ll meaning or not…if you would like to do your own background research rather than reading others’.

People should think things through rather than just take others’ words for it, especially since the facts of today might again be partially or totally wrong the next as has played out since the beginning. If this was a more deadly virus, perhaps the odds would play in the favor taking more chances with ones health long term. Especially with the Moderna mRNA vaccine (and any other like it) that the FDA wouldn’t approve prior to all of this. This isn’t really a vaccine that triggers an immune response but rather alters your genetics. Now, some geneticists /virologists believe future exposure beyond the vaccine could trigger an autoimmune response and the body attacking itself.

I’d just like to weigh options and see how things play out a bit longer. Seems reasonable to me.

the FDA is expected to give fill approval next month....is that going to sway you?

those are national numbers....not defensive, just curious as to why some try to fight those statistical facts?

its not just about the deaths, its also about the hospitals being overrun with covid patients in states and regions with low vaccination rates right now....

it's an individual choice, but those choices have consequences

 

[DadJokes]

I do not disagree with the general points you make - I get paid to be a skeptic (I'm a professional investor) and I sympathize with your desire to ask questions and challenge assumptions. A random chart from the internet with little in the way of notation or citation raises a few red flags for me personally, too.

But the smartest people I know in my life (my brother: 1590 SAT, went to college and medical school on academic scholarships, practices in a leading pediatric ICU; also my four doctors-turned-healthcare analysts who have so far correctly called three inflection points in the US infection rates for me at work) support vaccination unequivically. I have yet to meet anyone smarter than them who argues against it. Politicians, sure. Talking heads on TV, yes. But to say everyone's opinion should matter equally is what's called a false dichotomy and it plagues cable news (as well as Internet message boards). Eratosthenes proved the earth was round 2400 years ago yet flat earthers exist to this day. Their opinions are not and should not be considered equal.

Where I specialize - money, not healthcare policy - I can say with confidence that there is very little economic profit in vaccines. This is simply not where big pharmaceutical profits are made (although the sellers of raw materials and tools are doing very well). The vaccination site I went to was a bombed out KMart that has sat empty for a decade, and was staffed almost entirely by state employees and volunteers. It is (mostly) human altruism at a national and global scale.

To your latter points: viruses do mutate, and efficacy rates can attenuate (and can do so faster if populations fail to reach herd immunity). But if you believe in empiricism - why wouldn't you? - the data are public and available for anyone to see. Flat earthers are funny and harmless, but this is different. This virus has contributed to more Americans deaths in 1.5 years than all US military deaths in the HISTORY of our country. The human chain is only as strong as its weakest links. Try to be one of the strong ones.

What’s the current death rate? Can we get death rates for all CDC samples of virologic matter of current and past threats?

Edit: 1.6 % per the CDC and either 9th or 10th in death rate vs other virologic outbreaks over the last 50 years. The more population there is, the more it likely hits close to home but taking out emotion…we need to promptly and logically address the problem but it’s not a plague. Feel good measures should be called out because the false sense of protection has caused transmission.

Edit 8/21: Pfizer projects to make 33.5 Billion in revenue from it’s vaccine for 2021. Seems considerable to me. I’m sure it’s good for shareholders. Then there’s the annual booster shots that the mRNA variants look like they’re going to need now per reports referenced by the CDC director.

Edit: 8/26 regarding considerable profits

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/11/covid-19-vaccines-the-contracts-prices-and-profits


In regards to your implying education equates to an eager participant in getting vaccinated, there’s not been very many investigations into that. Perhaps this is the only? >>>

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...nt-to-get-vaccinated-against-covid/ar-AANjRHh

 

[DadJokes]

the FDA is expected to give fill approval next month....is that going to sway you?

those are national numbers....not defensive, just curious as to why some try to fight those statistical facts?

its not just about the deaths, its also about the hospitals being overrun with covid patients in states and regions with low vaccination rates right now....

it's an individual choice, but those choices have consequences

It may if it is not the mRNA variant. See, nowadays critique is seemingly considered fighting. Actually, it’s part of the scientific process…from admitting and testing a new patient accurately to the outcome, recovery or death.

Consistency and accuracy from those said to be hyper intelligent people from the outset would have created more trust in their expertise than how things have gone. With such great intelligence at our disposal, in theory, we might expect much more efficiency, accuracy, and less inconsistency.

The extreme answer would seem to be total disassociation with others but then people were still getting sick weeks later while taking all precautions. For such a contagious virus, the precautions for transmission mitigation seem inadequate…like uncertified homemade masks or cheap blue masks. Like I’ve said before, release a contagion into a sealed lab with one of those masks on with a virus of the same micron size (in droplet suspension) and contraction pathway that has a certain death rate…and tell me that’s sufficient in X amount of exposure time. Seems to me a false sense of security. 15 + minutes exposure to one who tests positive is the workplace standard. That could be too late wearing those. So again, my point is consistency. The mask is at least inconsistent in it’s effectiveness.

If they’d just say again, like in the beginning, they’re practically worthless. Especially in regards to mitigating transmission from the asymptomatic, they might gain some respect back. They might get people to better distance! Even if it happens to filter anything, (has each mask sold over the counter been tested for captured COVID particulate over X amount of time with a known particular saturation of the controlled environment?) the thinking you can freely be exposed, pull the mask, touch the mask, touch your face, etc….lots of factors in effectiveness is dangerous but perhaps they believe citizens need the consolation from going through the motions of wearing these masks. Those choices have consequences.

My body, my choice. Nobody wants to get very sick. Viruses are not new but once in a while a new variant comes along and we need to adapt. I’d like to feel like I’ve gathered enough data for myself to gauge both effectiveness and safety.

 

[CanAm_Melissa]

Thank you for sharing! Glad to hear he’s doing better now. My wife had some symptoms a couple years ago that could have been a degenerative auto immune disease. Having end of life preparation conversations is absolutely no fun. Nice vehicle choice! What did he go with?

Thanks! I've never thought I'd have so much fun just driving around! He got a black Mazda CX-5 fully loaded. He's a practical kinda guy . Although I do envy the air conditioned seats!

 

[csjlu]

What’s the current death rate? Can we get death rates for all CDC samples of virologic matter of current and past threats?

This is the last I will write about this, since this is not why people frequent this site and all these data are easily accessed elsewhere for those willing to look. The current trailing 28-day fatality rate rate is 67,000 deaths/week globally, and 14,000 deaths/week in the US. The cumulative US death toll of 625,000 includes two of my family members and three of my friends, and my father is currently sick. I have ten nephews and nieces who live in adjacent states to yours who are too young to receive the vaccine and are dependent on adults being responsible, since their local ICUs are 93% filled currently. These are the stats that matter most to me. I don't even know what you are asking in your second question.

 

[Steve JLUR]

Same here but about the big picture. I've been watching/hearing data of environmental issues since 1970. A nano second time period earth wise and things are very dismal looking. A Covid-19 variant might be Natures cure from humans. Folks don't seem to get their heads around that concept. IMHO, Enjoy life now.

this is the real story. This rotating, orbiting sphere will be here long after we ruin our ability to live here. But let’s just go on living like nothing should ever change. Nothing political, just science and human nature…
why do humans think it’s cool to be stoopid?

 

[DadJokes]

This is the last I will write about this, since this is not why people frequent this site and all these data are easily accessed elsewhere for those willing to look. The current trailing 28-day fatality rate rate is 67,000 deaths/week globally, and 14,000 deaths/week in the US. The cumulative US death toll of 625,000 includes two of my family members and three of my friends, and my father is currently sick. I have ten nephews and nieces who live in adjacent states to yours who are too young to receive the vaccine and are dependent on adults being responsible, since their local ICUs are 93% filled currently. These are the stats that matter most to me. I don't even know what you are asking in your second question.

I’m very sorry for your loss.

From what I can find currently, the death rate of those diagnosed is 1.67%. (37,259,886 diagnosed, 623,244 deaths per the CDC site the moment I type this) That’s gives no solace to those who have lost friends and loved ones but that’s what I was referring to. That would place it 9th or 10th in death rate of virus outbreaks over the last 50 years. The more populated the world gets, the more we’ll be exposed to the consequences of viruses in our lives. Hand washing, keeping our distance from others, the sick staying home, common sense measures are solid principles to rely on to prevent the spread but not absolute in their effectiveness while continuing to be around others.

Everything I ask is out of concern for my family as well. I have a son who is currently hospitalized with an unknown infection and I can’t even visit. That IS inessential exclusion isolation and it IS the best we can do. Wearing blue masks etc aren’t enough. Only ALL measures are adequate if you want to do all one can to prevent transmission…as difficult as it is for us socially. I miss him and I can’t even call because he’s sedated because he’s in pain.

He has a very long history of extensive medical problems and the outlook isn’t good. I ask the doctors questions, good/logical questions that they’re sometimes even surprised that I ask and I get great answers in return. That’s been lacking in my opinion in the public arena because to even have questions is considered stupid, rude, conspiracy theory perhaps, or any other bad descriptor of one’s choice.

 

[runningshoes]

..........

What boggles the mind is trying to smash open conversation and questioning anything about vaccines created by companies with questionable histories in such a short time, well meaning or not…if you would like to do your own background research rather than reading others’.

People should think things through rather than just take others’ words for it, especially since the facts of today might again be partially or totally wrong the next as has played out since the beginning. If this was a more deadly virus, perhaps the odds would play in the favor taking more chances with ones health long term. Especially with the Moderna mRNA vaccine (and any other like it) that the FDA wouldn’t approve prior to all of this. This isn’t really a vaccine that triggers an immune response but rather alters your genetics. Now, some geneticists /virologists believe future exposure beyond the vaccine could trigger an autoimmune response and the body attacking itself.

I’d just like to weigh options and see how things play out a bit longer. Seems reasonable to me.

Not trying to tell you what to do but there are 3 assumptions in your comment above that are simply incorrect and if you're making a decision based on that, maybe worth reconsidering.
- The vaccine does not edit / change your DNA or screw with your genetics in any form at all
- The vaccine does trigger an immune response, it just doesn't use the weakened form of Covid to do so
- The FDA has never declined approval of an mRNA vaccine or treatment prior to Covid - the simple fact is that these vaccines are the first to be submitted for approval. Most mRNA work done prior was not for vaccines and it's been ongoing over the last decade. The reason the current ones have not been formally approved is that neither company had the data required to submit to allow the FDA to make the final approval - the contingent approvals have been based on data submitted that has been available to date, including trials conducted prior to the contingent approval.

On a side not, if you're doing a risk assessment, the odds are clearly in your favor if you get hit with Delta and you're vaccinated. The worst odds that I've seen in the US are from a small sample size in Wisconsin from this week. Odds of hospitalization 4 to 1 in your favor if vaccinated, odds of death 11 to 1. Every other sample has the odds at even higher rates here in the US. Easily searchable for verification.

 

[DadJokes]

Not trying to tell you what to do but there are 3 assumptions in your comment above that are simply incorrect and if you're making a decision based on that, maybe worth reconsidering.
- The vaccine does not edit / change your DNA or screw with your genetics in any form at all
- The vaccine does trigger an immune response, it just doesn't use the weakened form of Covid to do so
- The FDA has never declined approval of an mRNA vaccine or treatment prior to Covid - the simple fact is that these vaccines are the first to be submitted for approval. Most mRNA work done prior was not for vaccines and it's been ongoing over the last decade. The reason the current ones have not been formally approved is that neither company had the data required to submit to allow the FDA to make the final approval - the contingent approvals have been based on data submitted that has been available to date, including trials conducted prior to the contingent approval.

On a side not, if you're doing a risk assessment, the odds are clearly in your favor if you get hit with Delta and you're vaccinated. The worst odds that I've seen in the US are from a small sample size in Wisconsin from this week. Odds of hospitalization 4 to 1 in your favor if vaccinated, odds of death 11 to 1. Every other sample has the odds at even higher rates here in the US. Easily searchable for verification.

It does not edit your DNA. You’re correct. I didn’t say that. Not my area of expertise but you may want to research mRNA. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

The concern with some scientists lies in repeated exposure over ones lifetime and concern the body could see itself as a threat at the RNA level. Interesting reading. It’s my understanding the FDA or Europe, repeatedly over decades, forbid the use of mRNA vaccines. Perhaps I’m incorrect and it was just Europe but it was one or both. The idea isn’t new, as admitted in this link…it’s just new to being allowed to move forward to sanctioned clinical trials and final approval.
>>> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

It may be worth hearing critique of this given the rush and pressure to develop something to prevent sickness amongst a fearful population. One except I found particularly interesting in one critique I found. Perhaps people can fact check this as well. Seems technically correct.

“It is not a vaccine as defined by the CDC as “A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease.” Rather, it is an experimental and novel technology. By definition of the FDA as a component used as treatment to affect a body’s function, it is in fact a medical device, a physical device that comes in a molecular sized package. (See CDC link for what this article is referencing.) Erroneously referring to this intervention as a vaccine exploits the public's ingrained trust of the vaccination program to solicit knee jerk response and action. It keeps us entrenched in needless debate in place of taking the necessary measures to investigate the impact on our health.”

The FDA has allowed this to be dramatically rushed under immense pressure to “do something” and I’m not sure that fact has precedent. At this time, I’d consider the Johnson and Johnson vaccine over the mRNA treatment.

 

[runningshoes]

It does not edit your DNA. You’re correct. I didn’t say that. Not my area of expertise but you may want to research mRNA. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

The concern with some scientists lies in repeated exposure over ones lifetime and concern the body could see itself as a threat at the RNA level. Interesting reading. It’s my understanding the FDA or Europe, repeatedly over decades, forbid the use of mRNA vaccines. Perhaps I’m incorrect and it was just Europe but it was one or both. The idea isn’t new, as admitted in this link…it’s just new to being allowed to move forward to sanctioned clinical trials and final approval.
>>> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

It may be worth hearing critique of this given the rush and pressure to develop something to prevent sickness amongst a fearful population. One except I found particularly interesting in one critique I found. Perhaps people can fact check this as well. Seems technically correct.

“It is not a vaccine as defined by the CDC as “A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease.” Rather, it is an experimental and novel technology. By definition of the FDA as a component used as treatment to affect a body’s function, it is in fact a medical device, a physical device that comes in a molecular sized package. (See CDC link for what this article is referencing.) Erroneously referring to this intervention as a vaccine exploits the public's ingrained trust of the vaccination program to solicit knee jerk response and action. It keeps us entrenched in needless debate in place of taking the necessary measures to investigate the impact on our health.”

The FDA has allowed this to be dramatically rushed under immense pressure to “do something” and I’m not sure that fact has precedent. At this time, I’d consider the Johnson and Johnson vaccine over the mRNA treatment.

Thanks for the response and a few points - you said that the vaccine alters your genetics. That means DNA. The surface of a cell where the proteins form is not altering your genetics. Could you also link the quoted medical device paragraph as clearly it notes a medical device as treatment and the vaccine is not that, in fact once you have an active case of Covid, no one will give you the shot.

I don't disagree with the fact that this was done in considerably less time than a regular situation and both consumers and the medical community learned a lot along the way. Having said that, most of what you present to justify your position is simply incorrect or a misunderstanding of basic facts and the only reason to not get a vaccine today is if you're so concerned over what we don't know and could happen that you're willing to risk yourself and everyone in your physical circle. If that's the case, fine, just say it.

 

[DadJokes]

Thanks for the response and a few points - you said that the vaccine alters your genetics. That means DNA. The surface of a cell where the proteins form is not altering your genetics. Could you also link the quoted medical device paragraph as clearly it notes a medical device as treatment and the vaccine is not that, in fact once you have an active case of Covid, no one will give you the shot.

I don't disagree with the fact that this was done in considerably less time than a regular situation and both consumers and the medical community learned a lot along the way. Having said that, most of what you present to justify your position is simply incorrect or a misunderstanding of basic facts and the only reason to not get a vaccine today is if you're so concerned over what we don't know and could happen that you're willing to risk yourself and everyone in your physical circle. If that's the case, fine, just say it.

Again, It does not alter your DNA (Deoxyribonucleic acid) it does interact with your genetics to prompt it with mRNA to produce a spike (see the CDC link) that your body then attacks. Not a traditional immune response as it’s not a virus entering the cell. Concur? And the “device“ is not necessarily a machine >>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/device
The critic is merely pointing to the fact it is not a traditional vaccination which people are familiar and comfortable with. Different conveyance hoping for the same outcome.

I have a position? Did you read all of my posts in their entirety or breeze over them itching to respond? Seems it might be the latter sir.

I am collecting information and doing my own research, willing to hear ALL options and opinions, including yours. Your response at the end there is a little hysterical. My body, my families’ bodies…not yours.

Calm down. It’s going to be ok.

 

[runningshoes]

Again, It does not alter your DNA (Deoxyribonucleic acid) it does interact with your genetics to prompt it with mRNA to produce a spike (see the CDC link) that your body then attacks. Not a traditional immune response as it’s not a virus entering the cell. Concur? And the “device“ is not necessarily a machine >>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/device
The critic is merely pointing to the fact it is not a traditional vaccination which people are familiar and comfortable with. Different conveyance hoping for the same outcome.

I have a position? Did you read all of my posts in their entirety or breeze over them itching to respond? Seems it might be the latter sir.

I am collecting information and doing my own research, willing to hear ALL options and opinions, including yours. Your response at the end there is a little hysterical. My body, my families’ bodies…not yours.

Calm down. It’s going to be ok.

Last response on this as the thread intent is long gone and I try to keep this kind of stuff out of my daily life with people I don't know. Having said that, I can say that I'm really not concerned about your personal decision, but rather the repetitive nature of the misinformation that you elect to post. Using genetics to describe the nature of the vaccine is simply not accurate. Stating that mRNA was declined for approval in the past - not accurate. Mixing up medical devices and vaccines - not accurate. I'm cool with your body your decision - as long as you (not you personally but the combination of all of you who have elected to not get the shot AND not give a crap about anyone else) stay away from everyone else. Everyone has choices and choices have consequences - if it's not clear that on a macro level the decision you've made has implications for others I don't know what to tell you. I hope that this all works out for you and your friends and family and no one gets sick, or worse. All the best and hopefully I'll see you on a trail...

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