DIY Centerforce flywheel and clutch install

[Toycrusher]

Are there any other vehicles that have a similar set-up I.E. no pilot bearing nor input shaft tht extends into the bearing thus being supported by the crankshaft? Seems bizarre to me, I've done my share of clutches/transmission rebuilds and have never seen this! The input shaft bearing must be extremely robust in these transmissions, or?

I've done a few myself and never seen another without the bearing or bushing. Shaft is robust but it's only as good as the internal bearing play

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[Spaffy]

I am one of these. To be fair, it's unclear where the issue lies. It's quite likely that the stock hydraulics are wimpy, unable to fully release the stock pressure plate. This could also be the underlying condition resulting in the failures of the stock units and the recalls.

It's also possible the fact that FCA did not design a pilot bearing or bushing into the system is a contributing factor. The symptoms are the same as a vehicle with a bad pilot bearing.
" Early signs of the pilot failing may be noise whenever the clutch is disengaged. The driver may also notice that the transmission is difficult to shift between gears or hard to put into reverse or first gear when stopped. "

Finally, Centerforce is hard at work developing a replacement for the entire stock clutch hydraulic system, which would probably be a big improvement even if you were running an original clutch.

I'm my research into other transmissions without pilot bearings, I found the Aisin AY6 (R-A60) in the Tacoma and FJ cruiser don't use one. These transmissions are also used in some other vehicles.

These transmissions appear to use front and rear input shaft bearings and not pilot bearings.

This topic came up in another thread. It may be more appropriate here.

Apparently they have complaints about their hydraulic system as well.

Found this replacement internal hydraulic slave cylinder:

http://www.clutchmasters.com/toyota...ic-slave-cylinder-installation-instructrions/

Seems to be a "sister" transmission to ours.

 

[Toycrusher]

Bravo! Great research!

More to chew on and ours could very well share that same internal design. Interesting throwout bearing conversion, not sure how it could relate to our symptoms just yet, but could be. Thanks!

 

[ALRUI]

All I can say is that must be one beefy bearing and trans case to support the load without the pilot bushing!

 

[Mandalorian]

I was going to start my own thread on my centerforce clutch but I’ll just contribute to this one instead especially since toycrusher helped me out and answered the numerous questions I had haha ( shoutout to @Toycrusher ) Fi

Which tool did you guys use to get to the bolts on top of the transmission? Did you just have a long extension? I fear letting the transmission hang to low. I read that toycrusher just let the transmission hang. Was it hanging without any support?

 

[Toycrusher]

Which tool did you guys use to get to the bolts on top of the transmission? Did you just have a long extension? I fear letting the transmission hang to low. I read that toycrusher just let the transmission hang. Was it hanging without any support?

Both times I just let it hang, 2nd time I didn't separate the t-case either. There is a wire harness bracket over those top bolts that will challenge your fortitude at keeping all utterances PG. I used really long extensions and a swivel. With a proper lift you probably wouldnt need to let it hang so low, but working from a garage floor, only way I could get any visibility to see what I was doing.

 

[Mandalorian]

Both times I just let it hang, 2nd time I didn't separate the t-case either. There is a wire harness bracket over those top bolts that will challenge your fortitude at keeping all utterances PG. I used really long extensions and a swivel. With a proper lift you probably wouldnt need to let it hang so low, but working from a garage floor, only way I could get any visibility to see what I was doing.

Ok I'll let it hang a little lower. I do have a harbor freight transmission jack. I just didn't want to snap anything

 

[Mandalorian]

Thank you! There ya have it: it's not even a bearing!

I'm using toycrushers "how to" also. I came back here because I had the same questions about the pilot bushing. With the kit I got the alignment tool doesn't go in as far as in the pictures. It appears the flywheel center hole is smaller and thus doesn't require the pilot bushing

 

[Mandalorian]

What is the earliest point I can check the clutch during the reassembly? Just want to make sure it shifts smoothly before putting everything back on.

 

[Toycrusher]

What is the earliest point I can check the clutch during the reassembly? Just want to make sure it shifts smoothly before putting everything back on.

Pretty much all the way back together except exhaust system. You could technically test before reconnecting t-case (if you separated) or driveshafts, but without the load of the tires, it's hard to know much

 

[zakaron]

For what it's worth, when I did my wife's 4G Eclipse GT clutch, it did not have a pilot bearing / bushing. I was surprised by this because every other clutch job I've ever done had the transmission input shaft supported by either a bearing or bushing. When I tried looking up a part # to verify, all I got was a listing for the 4cyl GS model. Nothing for the V6 GT. It has been working fine for the past 50K miles though.

So this makes me wonder if the clutch disk may be out of balance. When the pressure plate releases, the rotational weight of the clutch disk is now all on the transmission input shaft. With it still spinning, and imbalance would cause a wobble and therefore added wear to the input shaft bearing. That would explain why it took 10-15K for the problem to show up. That would suck if you have to do a trans teardown.

 

[Toycrusher]

For what it's worth, when I did my wife's 4G Eclipse GT clutch, it did not have a pilot bearing / bushing. I was surprised by this because every other clutch job I've ever done had the transmission input shaft supported by either a bearing or bushing. When I tried looking up a part # to verify, all I got was a listing for the 4cyl GS model. Nothing for the V6 GT. It has been working fine for the past 50K miles though.

So this makes me wonder if the clutch disk may be out of balance. When the pressure plate releases, the rotational weight of the clutch disk is now all on the transmission input shaft. With it still spinning, and imbalance would cause a wobble and therefore added wear to the input shaft bearing. That would explain why it took 10-15K for the problem to show up. That would suck if you have to do a trans teardown.

That is exactly my theory and the only one that explains my symptoms. My first CF clutch had uneven wear on the clutch fingers from the weight ring not being centered. That could have been a result of installation error (me) but mostly indicates the shaft was not spinning true with a slight wobble pulling the weights in that direction, also making the wobble worse. Replacing the clutch did not change anything, telling me the imbalance was transmission related, not clutch related.

If I start my Jeep and don't release the clutch, the disc is not spinning, and I can easily engage any gear. This tells me my hydraulics are good and my slave cylinder is fully releasing the dics from the pressure plate/flywheel.
If I release the clutch in neutral (like waiting at a light) the disc and input shaft begin spinning at flywheel speed. When I re-engage the clutch, the disc stays stuck to the flywheel (or pressure plate) because of that imbalance and because the disc is still spinning at flywheel speed, trying to select a gear gives the same resistance as trying to select a gear with the motor running and the clutch pedal not pressed, ie. it can't be forced into gear, and my Jeep starts to move while I apply that pressure to the shift lever.
However, if I attempt to move the lever into 4th gear or higher, there is enough resistance in the synchronizers and enough speed differential in the gear set to force the clutch disc to "unstick" from the flywheel/PP. Once it "unsticks", it's no longer spinning at flywheel speed, and I can again easily select the gear I want.

In my opinion, since it doesn't appear to be a hydraulic release issue or a clutch issue, the only way to address this is to cure the imbalance and I'm hoping that doesn't involve a gearbox teardown... but it probably does.

 

[zakaron]

Sorry to hear that... it seemed like Centerforce had a good thing going, but you may have found the weak spot unfortunately, that only mileage could find.

 

[Toycrusher]

Sorry to hear that... it seemed like Centerforce had a good thing going, but you may have found the weak spot unfortunately, that only mileage could find.

It doesn't seem to be anything Centerforce has control over. I'm willing to bet that those transmissions that suffered the fractured pressure plate had the wobbly shaft

 

[Mandalorian]

Pretty much all the way back together except exhaust system. You could technically test before reconnecting t-case (if you separated) or driveshafts, but without the load of the tires, it's hard to know much

Cruised around this week end and it felt great. I did notice a vibration at 55 mph that wasnt there before. Although before I was getting a vibration in the steering wheel at 75 mph. Any ideas other than balancing the tires. I also installed a steering stabilizer while waiting on clutch. The old steering stabilzer was pancaked about a year ago

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