Direct Injection-Why I'm Happy the 3.6 Doesn't Have It

DanW

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I was very happy when the news came awhile back that the 3.6 that would be in the Wrangler would be the updated version, but would NOT have direct injection. This video gives a good explanation as to why.

Disclaimer: Some DI engines are doing just fine, long term. I've seen MANY Ford Ecoboosts, for example, that have hundreds of thousands of miles on them and have not had the valve deposit issue cause trouble. My own Ecoboost, which was destroyed when a quick oil change shop improperly installed the oil filter, was torn down by the Ford dealer with 85k miles on it, and they said the valves looked good. For reference, from the first oil change onward, I ran Mobil 1 EP 5w30. A number of oil change intervals went to 10,000 miles, or a little further, so I feel a bit of relief knowing it was in good shape. However, I still am VERY glad not to have DI on my Pentastar.

Enjoy!






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thenewrick

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Early generations of DI engines had some intake valve build up but often only decreased performance a little bit. I cleaned the intake valves of my BMW 335i for this reason. It was a common thing with them and not too tough. Modern DI engines are designed to produce less of those issues and some now even have port and direct injection.

Sounds like you just had a bad mechanic mess up and oil change.
 
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DanW

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Early generations of DI engines had some intake valve build up but often only decreased performance a little bit. I cleaned the intake valves of my BMW 335i for this reason. It was a common thing with them and not too tough. Modern DI engines are designed to produce less of those issues and some now even have port and direct injection.

Sounds like you just had a bad mechanic mess up and oil change.
Yeah, their insurance covered it. $11,000 bucks for a Ford factory rebuilt engine. It is a Gen 1 Ecoboost. I know the Gen 2 has some changes to address this. Mine really didn't show a problem with it at 85,000 miles. I'm still very glad not to have that complexity with my 3.6. It just isn't necessary.
 

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It’s just higher fuel pressure and bigger injectors for more power and efficiency. It’s better for sure. If you want simple and reliable go electric. Gas engines and transmissions are absurdly complex to begin with.
 

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I've heard the majority of car dealers have processes to clean the valve seats, at a considerable cost. Then there's BG products that supposedly work just fine.

Direct Injection, DI, is a problem. There's no cleaning gas going over the intake valve seats to remove oil sludge.

I'm of the same opinion of DanW; one less maintenance headache to worry when it will rear its ugly head.
 
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DanW

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It’s just higher fuel pressure and bigger injectors for more power and efficiency. It’s better for sure. If you want simple and reliable go electric. Gas engines and transmissions are absurdly complex to begin with.
I disagree. It may not be more complex, but it has issues. It also produces higher emissions than port injection, on most DI engines. The 3.6, based on used oil analysis, is easier on oil. It doesn't cause the fuel dilution that DI causes. If a DI engine requires valve cleaning at 30k or 60k, or whatever, then it is a nuisance, at best, and a royal pain in the ass and wallet, more likely. The Pentastar has proven to be a very reliable engine, complex or not.

That said, outside of the oil change shop catastrophe, my Ecoboost was serving us quite well, and the power is astonishing. Ford determined it needed what amounted to a full redesign, though. There are reasons for that. There are also many reasons Chrysler decided not to add it to the Pentastar. I'm glad they didn't.
 
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I've heard the majority of car dealers have processes to clean the valve seats, at a considerable cost. Then there's BG products that supposedly work just fine.

Direct Injection, DI, is a problem. There's no cleaning gas going over the intake valve seats to remove oil sludge.

I'm of the same opinion of DanW; one less maintenance headache to worry when it will rear its ugly head.
Yep, the key words, to me, are "considerable cost." I don't need that.
 

thenewrick

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Yea first gen DI systems needed the extra cleaning. For the BMW it was every 50k or so. But newer systems don’t have the issue. And from what I gather half the fun of having a Jeep is breaking stuff and fixing it. ;p

I hope people know that the 3.0 diesel will require way more maintenance and upkeep costs than a gas engine and are much more complex.

At the end of the day I want power and efficiency. Making something .07% more complex isn’t even a factor for me.
 

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Just Googled to see if any new developments have been made recently to correct problems associated with DI. From everything that I can find there is no change. Vehicles with DI still have this problem and will need to have valve seat surfaces cleaned usually around 80k miles.

I did read where some manufacturers had fewer reports of this problem. That doesn’t mean it’s not happening; it’s just not being reported.

If someone can find or knows anything to the contrary; I would like to know about it.
 

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I was very happy when the news came awhile back that the 3.6 that would be in the Wrangler would be the updated version, but would NOT have direct injection. This video gives a good explanation as to why.

Disclaimer: Some DI engines are doing just fine, long term. I've seen MANY Ford Ecoboosts, for example, that have hundreds of thousands of miles on them and have not had the valve deposit issue cause trouble. My own Ecoboost, which was destroyed when a quick oil change shop improperly installed the oil filter, was torn down by the Ford dealer with 85k miles on it, and they said the valves looked good. For reference, from the first oil change onward, I ran Mobil 1 EP 5w30. A number of oil change intervals went to 10,000 miles, or a little further, so I feel a bit of relief knowing it was in good shape. However, I still am VERY glad not to have DI on my Pentastar.

Enjoy!

What a great education, Thanks for sharing. Very well presented.
 

thenewrick

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My Google search provided exactly opposite results. Many DI systems now use a partial port injection to clean the intake. Also, this is not hugely important. It's a loss of like 10 horsepower and 5% fuel economy after 50k miles without a cleaning. Huge over-reaction going on here. Non-issue. All new engines are DI/partial DI. They are only using the old Pentastar in the Wrangler to use up old inferior inventory on a profitable new model. You're just trying to convince yourself that buying the crappy old one is better than the new one because it's not as advanced.

The only time I've seen a company make a future engine worse than the existing one was my old BMW where they over engineered the 335i and gave it too much power and made it cheaper/weaker for the newer model years so it wouldn't compete as directly with the M3. But 99.99% of the time, the newer engine is better.

Also that's a good video, pretty much explains everything I said.
 
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That One Guy

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My Google search provided exactly opposite results. Many DI systems now use a partial port injection to clean the intake. Also, this is not hugely important. It's a loss of like 10 horsepower and 5% fuel economy after 50k miles without a cleaning. Huge over-reaction going on here. Non-issue. All new engines are DI/partial DI. They are only using the old Pentastar in the Wrangler to use up old inferior inventory on a profitable new model. You're just trying to convince yourself that buying the crappy old one is better than the new one because it's not as advanced.

The only time I've seen a company make a future engine worse than the existing one was my old BMW where they over engineered the 335i and gave it too much power and made it cheaper/weaker for the newer model years so it wouldn't compete as directly with the M3. But 99.99% of the time, the newer engine is better.

Also that's a good video, pretty much explains everything I said.
All new engines do not have DI.

The newer engine is not always better, at least from a reliability standpoint.

Jeep is not "using up old inventory" putting this pentastar in the wrangler.

Assuming that pulled-from-ass 5% efficiency drop were to be true, that's actual significant when we're talking about how far vehicles get driven.

I'm gladly gonna stick with the tried and true V6. I'll bet you serious money that new complicated 2.0T drive train has major issues cresting 150k.
 

thenewrick

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We can agree to disagree then :P

I do agree that gas engines have become way too complicated for their own good though. With all these computers and battery powered assist technologies it's like putting a steam-assist engine on a horse to water it and cool it while you ride it. Doesn't make sense. Time to move on for sure.

Without doing any research and taking an educated guess; I'd say new engines are more reliable and longer-lasting than old ones.

Quick reference Ward's top engines for 2018:
This year’s winners:

  • 150-kW Electric Propulsion System (Chevrolet Bolt EV)
  • 3.6L Pentastar DOHC V-6/PHEV (Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid)
  • 2.7L Twin Turbo DOHC V-6 (Ford F-150)
  • 5.0L DOHC V-8 (Ford Mustang GT)
  • 130-kW Fuel Cell/Electric Propulsion System (Honda Clarity)
  • 2.0L VTEC Turbocharged DOHC 4-Cyl. (Honda Civic Type R)
  • 3.0L Turbocharged DOHC V-6 (Infiniti Q50)
  • 2.0L Turbocharged DOHC 4-Cyl. (Jaguar XF)
  • 3.3L Turbocharged DOHC V-6 (Kia Stinger)
  • 2.5L Atkinson DOHC 4-Cyl./HEV (Toyota Camry Hybrid)
4 Hybrid/EVs, and 5 DI turbocharged, and 1 DI V8.
 
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That One Guy

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We can agree to disagree then :P

I do agree that gas engines have become way too complicated for their own good though. With all these computers and battery powered assist technologies it's like putting a steam-assist engine on a horse to water it and cool it while you ride it. Doesn't make sense. Time to move on for sure.

Without doing any research and taking an educated guess; I'd say new engines are more reliable and longer-lasting than old ones.
"Agree to disagree" when your opinion gets challenged. Not all opinions are created equal. Please don't spread random made-up information, unless you clearly cite it as your own speculation and opinion.
 

thenewrick

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You know that's exactly what you're doing when you say the old engine with older tech is more reliable than the newer engine with better tech; right?
 

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