Diesel delete

[RELBUS]

Efficiency is one thing and pollution is quite another. I am NOT a tree hugger, but I can easily say the fumes spewed by nearly 100% of deleted diesels are the reasons the post-2007 emissions came to be in the first place. I have owned 3 diesels in my life--1 pre-2007 and 2 post-2007, I will not own another. Modern diesels are not made for stop and go driving, they are made for 100% open road operation.

The EGR/DEF/DPF/SCR systems are problematic on every brand of diesel out there and thus the reason that "deletes" came to be, but then there is also the Bosch HPFP/ULSD debacle and those are also used on nearly every model out there. The EPA has seriously cracked down on delete/tuner shops, shuttering many of them, so new "tunes" by any reputable company will likely not happen (not that any of them are optimal). Cost of operation of modern diesels is not cheap and that is once you get past the initial price tag. Repairs are another story--get some water in the fuel and your eyes will roll back in your head at the cost of repairing the fuel system.

In my estimation, diesels will go extinct for light trucks and passenger cars much sooner than later.

I agree with alot of what you said.
The emissions were problematic. They have improved ALOT. Enough so I would have no reservations driving one with emissions intact. The cp4 is definitely concerning though.

There are still reputable companies out there, but they have gone 100% legal. Unfortunately even if you have their tune package, and have paid for the support - they no longer will write tunes to support deletes. I added some more hard parts to my build not too long ago, and I could not get them to update my tune to take advantage of the parts I added.

Yep, and then there is cost. One good thing I have found on all the diesel pickups I have owned, you pay up front but get that $ back when you go to sell it. For example, my last truck the diesel option was $8k. I drove that truck for 80k miles, when I sold it, I sold it for $8k less than I bought it for. Try that with a gasser! Never happen.

You guys wanting to tune your eco's may want to talk to hardway performance down in Fla. They have done a bunch with Ecodiesel's.

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[RELBUS]

I dont disagree with regards to the big brother comment, but it is legal for offroad purposes, so they wouldnt be able to restrict a canadian based company from producing a product for legal purposes in the US. It would have to be on the local level, which means they would have to rely on emissions testing and/or enforcement on an individual basis to prove that you're using for something other than offroad use.

If your vehicle is plated, and registered to drive on public roads in the US, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on when claiming for offroad/race use only.

Ottawa Kalmar yard spotter trucks have a 6.7 cummins, you can no longer buy them without emissions (you could for years post 07.5, but they were offroad only. Onroad models were identical except came with DPF and EGR. )
While shopping for a new yard spotter to replace my 2011 offroad only non emission 6.7 Ottawa, I looked into buying a new offroad only 6.7 that came with emissions. Even though it is strictly used offroad, it is my understanding that if I deleted it, it would be illegal.

decent read:
http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/engine/1903-is-diesel-tuning-dead

 

[Gonzanc]

If your vehicle is plated, and registered to drive on public roads in the US, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on when claiming for offroad/race use only.

Ottawa Kalmar yard spotter trucks have a 6.7 cummins, you can no longer buy them without emissions (you could for years post 07.5, but they were offroad only. Onroad models were identical except came with DPF and EGR. )
While shopping for a new yard spotter to replace my 2011 offroad only non emission 6.7 Ottawa, I looked into buying a new offroad only 6.7 that came with emissions. Even though it is strictly used offroad, it is my understanding that if I deleted it, it would be illegal.

decent read:
http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/engine/1903-is-diesel-tuning-dead

I cant agree with your statement. You absolutely would have a leg to stand on if you are tuning the ecodiesel for offroad use. In essence, you would keep the DPF, but the tune would allow you to electronically turn off the EGR, DEF and related sensors, so you go to the emissions testing place with the EGR turned on, you pass emissions. You go offroad, you tune for EGR delete. If for some reason you are mandated outside of that testing to prove you have the EGR turned on, then you use the tune with the EGR on or suffer the consequences.

A few quotes from the article you posted:

"There are literally thousands of diesel and gas vehicles out there that are street-driven yet still participate in closed-course competition events. We need to come to terms with laws that make sense and rules for these types of vehicles. We're actively working with the EPA to explore these types of options."

and

"Off-road–only tuning will also become more popular, as diesels participate in other forms of motorsports, and events such as the Ultimate Callout Challenge become more popular."

"Diesel tuning will continue to be one of the most exciting, misunderstood, and maligned markets for many years to come."

Again, the ability to switch tunes is possible and currently in place. Whether or not you use the tune in offroad situations would be up to you, but it is completely erroneous to state that you wouldnt have a leg to stand on if your vehicle is plated, and registered to drive on public roads in the US. There are currently many people doing this (legally, I might add) and doing so in the situations I laid out above.

On a side note, I spoke with Hardway Performance in florida and they are no longer supporting ecodiesel tunes. Including Ram.

 

[CarbonSteel]

I agree with alot of what you said.
The emissions were problematic. They have improved ALOT. Enough so I would have no reservations driving one with emissions intact. The cp4 is definitely concerning though.

Yep, and then there is cost. One good thing I have found on all the diesel pickups I have owned, you pay up front but get that $ back when you go to sell it. For example, my last truck the diesel option was $8k. I drove that truck for 80k miles, when I sold it, I sold it for $8k less than I bought it for. Try that with a gasser! Never happen.

My last diesel was a 2015 and while there have been improvements from 2007, I am skeptical they will improve to the point in enough time before diesels die for light trucks and passenger cars. Even historically "diesel friendly" Europe is instituting regulations and taxes for diesels. There are also plenty of people having issues with all manner of emissions systems on all brands with many left in nanny-mode when they fail and most of them not covered under warranty. I bought the extended warranty on my last one and due to a career change (at the time) was fortunate enough to sell the truck before I needed it. I would not buy any modern diesel without an extended warranty unless my pockets were simply flush with cash.

Speaking of cash, if you add the operational costs plus the initial costs of a diesel, most people will quickly find the break-even point is far north of 400K miles versus that of a gasoline equivalent. The "good old days" of buying a diesel because "it is cheaper in the long run" are long gone. In most places, the fuel is substantially more versus gasoline and the maintenance is another offset--not to mention the inevitable repair bill that will strike most diesels at far less mileage than 400K. In your example, even if the gasoline truck sold for 16K less, it is still a wash and the gasoline model would be cheaper to operate in the interim.

I am not a diesel hater--I loved the ones I had, but for the average Joe (and soon to be everyone except HD and OTR operators) diesels simply do not make sense like they once did.

 

[Gonzanc]

My last diesel was a 2015 and while there have been improvements from 2007, I am skeptical they will improve to the point in enough time before diesels die for light trucks and passenger cars. Even historically "diesel friendly" Europe is instituting regulations and taxes for diesels. There are also plenty of people having issues with all manner of emissions systems on all brands with many left in nanny-mode when they fail and most of them not covered under warranty. I bought the extended warranty on my last one and due to a career change (at the time) was fortunate enough to sell the truck before I needed it. I would not buy any modern diesel without an extended warranty unless my pockets were simply flush with cash.

Speaking of cash, if you add the operational costs plus the initial costs of a diesel, most people will quickly find the break-even point against is far north of 400K miles versus that of a gasoline equivalent. The "good old days" of buying a diesel because "it is cheaper in the long run" are long gone. In most places, the fuel is substantially more versus gasoline and the maintenance is another offset--not tom mention the inevitable repair bill that will strike most diesels at far less mileage than 400K. In your example, even if the gasoline truck sold for 16K less, it is still a wash and the gasoline model would be cheaper to operate in the interim.

I am not a diesel hater--I loved the ones I had, but for the average Joe (and soon to be everyone except HD and OTR operators) diesels simply do not make sense like they once did.

Valid point IF people are operating under your assumption that a diesel "is cheaper in the long run". I think most on this forum dont operate under that assumption and purchased for other reasons.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Valid point IF people are operating under your assumption that a diesel "is cheaper in the long run". I think most on this forum dont operate under that assumption and purchased for other reasons.

True; though even some of the posts on this forum indicate people are considering the diesel for MPG versus a gasoline engine. That notwithstanding, a diesel costs more to buy, to operate, and repair, so no matter what the use case, a new modern diesel owner needs to be prepared for that or be woefully surprised when it happens.

 

[RELBUS]

I cant agree with your statement. You absolutely would have a leg to stand on if you are tuning the ecodiesel for offroad use. In essence, you would keep the DPF, but the tune would allow you to electronically turn off the EGR, DEF and related sensors, so you go to the emissions testing place with the EGR turned on, you pass emissions. You go offroad, you tune for EGR delete. If for some reason you are mandated outside of that testing to prove you have the EGR turned on, then you use the tune with the EGR on or suffer the consequences.

A few quotes from the article you posted:

"There are literally thousands of diesel and gas vehicles out there that are street-driven yet still participate in closed-course competition events. We need to come to terms with laws that make sense and rules for these types of vehicles. We're actively working with the EPA to explore these types of options."

and

"Off-road–only tuning will also become more popular, as diesels participate in other forms of motorsports, and events such as the Ultimate Callout Challenge become more popular."

"Diesel tuning will continue to be one of the most exciting, misunderstood, and maligned markets for many years to come."

Again, the ability to switch tunes is possible and currently in place. Whether or not you use the tune in offroad situations would be up to you, but it is completely erroneous to state that you wouldnt have a leg to stand on if your vehicle is plated, and registered to drive on public roads in the US. There are currently many people doing this (legally, I might add) and doing so in the situations I laid out above.

On a side note, I spoke with Hardway Performance in florida and they are no longer supporting ecodiesel tunes. Including Ram.

That is too bad about Hardway.
I stand corrected. In the situation you describe, that should work. Problem is the majority of people deleting are not following those rules and using strictly for offroad. Because of that things have only gotten more difficult to tune and delete, and it will only continue.
I could be wrong, but I do not see people buying tunes simply for offroad use.

 

[RELBUS]

My last diesel was a 2015 and while there have been improvements from 2007, I am skeptical they will improve to the point in enough time before diesels die for light trucks and passenger cars. Even historically "diesel friendly" Europe is instituting regulations and taxes for diesels. There are also plenty of people having issues with all manner of emissions systems on all brands with many left in nanny-mode when they fail and most of them not covered under warranty. I bought the extended warranty on my last one and due to a career change (at the time) was fortunate enough to sell the truck before I needed it. I would not buy any modern diesel without an extended warranty unless my pockets were simply flush with cash.

Speaking of cash, if you add the operational costs plus the initial costs of a diesel, most people will quickly find the break-even point is far north of 400K miles versus that of a gasoline equivalent. The "good old days" of buying a diesel because "it is cheaper in the long run" are long gone. In most places, the fuel is substantially more versus gasoline and the maintenance is another offset--not to mention the inevitable repair bill that will strike most diesels at far less mileage than 400K. In your example, even if the gasoline truck sold for 16K less, it is still a wash and the gasoline model would be cheaper to operate in the interim.

I am not a diesel hater--I loved the ones I had, but for the average Joe (and soon to be everyone except HD and OTR operators) diesels simply do not make sense like they once did.

You definitely do not come out ahead buying a diesel if you are thinking you will be saving money. Just stating gas trucks do not hold their value the way the diesels do, so at least we have that going for us.

Completely agree. Love my diesels, and this may be my last one.

 

[jeepingib]

Efficiency is one thing and pollution is quite another. I am NOT a tree hugger, but I can easily say the fumes spewed by nearly 100% of deleted diesels are the reasons the post-2007 emissions came to be in the first place. I have owned 3 diesels in my life--1 pre-2007 and 2 post-2007, I will not own another. Modern diesels are not made for stop and go driving, they are made for 100% open road operation.

The EGR/DEF/DPF/SCR systems are problematic on every brand of diesel out there and thus the reason that "deletes" came to be, but then there is also the Bosch HPFP/ULSD debacle and those are also used on nearly every model out there. The EPA has seriously cracked down on delete/tuner shops, shuttering many of them, so new "tunes" by any reputable company will likely not happen (not that any of them are optimal). Cost of operation of modern diesels is not cheap and that is once you get past the initial price tag. Repairs are another story--get some water in the fuel and your eyes will roll back in your head at the cost of repairing the fuel system.

In my estimation, diesels will go extinct for light trucks and passenger cars much sooner than later.

An efficient Diesel is also a fairly clean engine. I've been a Diesel mechanic for over 20 years. A properly setup pre 07 engine is still very clean. But most of them are run very rich because it is safer for the engine, than risking the temps when it is run lean. We didn't get a lot of time for manufacturers to accept electronically controlled engines and not be forced to run the emissions equipment to really find out how efficient and clean they could be with the electronic controls and lack of EGR, DPF, and Urea injection. And when running this equipment the engine is actually less efficient because of it. So more carbon emissions are being produced, in order to lower the NOx gasses.

 

[CarbonSteel]

An efficient Diesel is also a fairly clean engine. I've been a Diesel mechanic for over 20 years. A properly setup pre 07 engine is still very clean. But most of them are run very rich because it is safer for the engine, than risking the temps when it is run lean. We didn't get a lot of time for manufacturers to accept electronically controlled engines and not be forced to run the emissions equipment to really find out how efficient and clean they could be with the electronic controls and lack of EGR, DPF, and Urea injection. And when running this equipment the engine is actually less efficient because of it. So more carbon emissions are being produced, in order to lower the NOx gasses.

So the black smoke rolling out of the pre-2007 and deleted post-2007 engines is clean? I have owned both and I could not even smell the diesel in both post-2007 non-deleted engines that I owned. The same could not be said for any pre-2007 that I have seen or the vast majority of the post-2007 deleted engines. I am not discounting your experience and I acknowledge it is **stupid** to burn more diesel to clean the effects the diesel before it created, but there can be no doubt that even with the increase of CO2, it is still less pollution than pre-2007.

 

[jeepingib]

So the black smoke rolling out of the pre-2007 and deleted post-2007 engines is clean? I have owned both and I could not even smell the diesel in both post-2007 non-deleted engines that I owned. The same could not be said for any pre-2007 that I have seen or the vast majority of the post-2007 deleted engines. I am not discounting your experience and I acknowledge it is **stupid** to burn more diesel to clean the effects the diesel before it created, but there can be no doubt that even with the increase of CO2, it is still less pollution than pre-2007.

No, that would be excess fuel being burnt. I'm talking about an actual clean tune, where the ECM is smart enough to dial back fuel from the injectors when not needed. I never said that it would be cleaner than with the controls that are currently in place. Just that a well designed engine with proper tuning could be clean. And the more pollution is rather relative. You are trading one for the other.

 

[CarbonSteel]

No, that would be excess fuel being burnt. I'm talking about an actual clean tune, where the ECM is smart enough to dial back fuel from the injectors when not needed. I never said that it would be cleaner than with the controls that are currently in place. Just that a well designed engine with proper tuning could be clean. And the more pollution is rather relative. You are trading one for the other.

I have never seen a pre-2007 diesel that did not produce tons of soot when starting up and all the way until they are at cruising speeds which is where they are the cleanest. While diesels produce less CO2; they produce far more particulate and NOx (without post-2007 emissions installed), I would rather have the former than the latter--but I see your point of view and can respect it!

 

[DaltonGang]

You sure about that? They tried to tag me for no DPF last year. I let the guy know 07 was the last year of emissions free crap. So he decided to give me crap about my limo tint.

i have a few friends that have 2014-2019 diesels, and they have removed the.factory exhaust, and run without DPF or Cat converter. Never been a problem in the houston area with inspections.
Maybe you just ran into a whiney snowflake, that hates diesels. For snowflakes, diesel engines are a scourge on our planet.

 

[JDub11]

I dont think it's possible to run a diesel to "lean" My want a new occupation.

 

[RELBUS]

I have never seen a pre-2007 diesel that did not produce tons of soot when starting up and all the way until they are at cruising speeds which is where they are the cleanest. While diesels produce less CO2; they produce far more particulate and NOx (without post-2007 emissions installed), I would rather have the former than the latter--but I see your point of view and can respect it!

I've owned a few late model 5.9's (05-07) that did not smoke a bit stock. Like someone else said, over fueling is what causes smoke. Heck even my deleted ram hardly smokes unless its turned up and I'm getting on it.

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