Dear mechanics: to ethanol or not to ethanol?

[jeepingib]

That’s what I’ve read before when considering adding a turbo kit to another car.
I know you can get a lot more power out of e85. My limited understanding was that you can mess with the timing a lot more without introducing knock.

I wonder if stock computers are programmed to really take advantage of this, or if you’d need an e85 specific tune? Or if the gains are much without forced induction?

Stock cars are not really capable of taking advantage of the increased octane of e85. With a custom tune, and more compression, higher flowing injection systems, etc. Then yes e85 can be used to build power. But a stock vehicle will actually see less power and economy from it.

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[Mx5red]

Please learn something about the hard parts and any alcohol before advising on engine tunning. Very few street car injectors can flow the 100% increase necessary to make more hp than gas.

Yea, so I’m not sure how you think I’m advising anyone on tuning.

There clearly is some easy power available, just a quick google of the Livernois tune shows claimed 30-50HP on “otherwise stock,” which is more than I would’ve thought.
My point was I didn’t think that much was available without a tune, and possibly an upgrade of some fuel delivery components. I guess I was wrong, but I wonder how much more is possible with some upgraded parts.. or if there’s really ANY gain with a stock computer.

And you’re right along with tuning for e85, people were also putting in larger injectors, fuel pumps too In order to get big gains. I think injectors were the first rate limiting step but I can’t remember if everyone was adding fuel pumps, intake, exhaust for that application. Was too big a project (track car) so I never took the plunge.

 

[Jerrycronus]

Show me the dyno runs to back up the above. e85 sucks unless you have a special built engine and rich daddy to pay for it.

https://www.garrettmotion.com/news/...ce-for-your-turbo-sammit-1-6l-miata-gtx2867r/

It's 105 octane fuel dude. You can add a significant amount of boost and timing.

Yes you need to make sure your fuel system can keep up as you need to flow 30-35% more fuel over gas. But again it burns cleaner than straight gas and compared to the cost of 105 octane gas, it's cheap as hell.

In fact it's normally about $0.10 cheaper a gallon than 91 near me.

 

[Steve Jennings]

https://www.garrettmotion.com/news/...ce-for-your-turbo-sammit-1-6l-miata-gtx2867r/

It's 105 octane fuel dude. You can add a significant amount of boost and timing.

Yes you need to make sure your fuel system can keep up as you need to flow 30-35% more fuel over gas. But again it burns cleaner than straight gas and compared to the cost of 105 octane gas, it's cheap as hell.

In fact it's normally about $0.10 cheaper a gallon than 91 near me.

Like I said "a special built engine ". Is the 8.5: cr stock?

 

[VKSheridan]

In the day, Ethanol got a bad rap for washing intake valves on older carbureted engines. Today’s engines and oil formulations have repeatedly proven they are designed to prevent that yet the “Ethanol bad“ commentary persists.

Funny thing is, over 98% of all gasoline sold in the U.S. contains ethanol. Source: U.S. Department of Energy

If your engine is the 3.6L, it uses multi-port fuel injection (fuel squirts on the backside of the intake valve), there is no reason to remotely worry about using 10% Ethanol with every fill-up.

If your engine is the 2.0T, it uses Direct Injection, (fuel squirts directly into the combustion cylinder) and there is even less reason to worry about 10% Ethanol.

If you crammed a 6.2L Hellcat engine into your Jeep, it can burn up to 15% Ethanol with zero worries but it will be a touch slower in the quarter mile and it will drain your tank a bit quicker….

TLDR: Up to 15% Ethanol is fine for every fill up for your Jeep. You’ve been putting up to 10% Ethanol in your Jeep since day one.

 

[Terpsmandan]

I think the main concern these days with ethanol is due to its hydroscopic nature during long term storage. If you’re running fresh fuel through the motor on a regular basis you should be fine. It becomes an issue with small seasonal engines in lawn equipment and boats but in your daily driver it’s not a big issue

We sold a GC that had been sitting too long and the ethanol separated out of the gasoline and it would not start. Had to drain the tank and flush the injectors to get it right.

 

[Jerrycronus]

Like I said "a special built engine ". Is the 8.5: cr stock?

I can't believe I'm still talking about this....

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/e85-on-stock-engine.429416/

https://www.gtrlife.com/threads/e85-on-stock-motor.114884/

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1507-everything-you-need-to-know-about-e85/

Or how about some videos about stock engines making huge gains with e85?







I used to tune cars for a living. My best friend has been doing this stuff for more than 15 years.

If you like I'd be more than happy to link you to his shop's site.

You may think you know what you're talking about, but it's pretty obvious you don't.

Any new car doesn't need anything special to run up to 15% ethanol.

E85 is awesome and if you're tuned for it can make great power. You don't need a built engine. You may need to change out some seals and depending on how much power you want to make, make some upgrades to the fuel system. But that's true about making a lot of power even with pump gas.

 

[2nd 392]

At least you have the option to choose! We don’t in Ca!

 

[Old Dogger]

I stick to Top Tier fuel stations and don't worry about the ethanol content.

This.........

 

[Steve Jennings]

I can't believe I'm still talking about this....

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/e85-on-stock-engine.429416/

https://www.gtrlife.com/threads/e85-on-stock-motor.114884/

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1507-everything-you-need-to-know-about-e85/

Or how about some videos about stock engines making huge gains with e85?







I used to tune cars for a living. My best friend has been doing this stuff for more than 15 years.

If you like I'd be more than happy to link you to his shop's site.

You may think you know what you're talking about, but it's pretty obvious you don't.

Any new car doesn't need anything special to run up to 15% ethanol.

E85 is awesome and if you're tuned for it can make great power. You don't need a built engine. You may need to change out some seals and depending on how much power you want to make, make some upgrades to the fuel system. But that's true about making a lot of power even with pump gas.

coolaid

I can't believe I'm still talking about this....

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/e85-on-stock-engine.429416/

https://www.gtrlife.com/threads/e85-on-stock-motor.114884/

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1507-everything-you-need-to-know-about-e85/

Or how about some videos about stock engines making huge gains with e85?







I used to tune cars for a living. My best friend has been doing this stuff for more than 15 years.

If you like I'd be more than happy to link you to his shop's site.

You may think you know what you're talking about, but it's pretty obvious you don't.

Any new car doesn't need anything special to run up to 15% ethanol.

E85 is awesome and if you're tuned for it can make great power. You don't need a built engine. You may need to change out some seals and depending on how much power you want to make, make some upgrades to the fuel system. But that's true about making a lot of power even with pump gas.

You just shredded the last bit of my self esteem. I never worked on street cars (and I never will) and have marginal respect for the smoke and mirrors aspect of "tuners". My experience with e85
was a n/a single cylinder race engine we were asked to optimize for e85 for fuel mileage. We did but it still needed an almost 1.0 bsfc. The barrel of e85 cost over $1000 because it had to be real e85.
Have a nice life. I am pretty sure we are comparing apples to grapefruit.

 

[jeepingib]

I can't believe I'm still talking about this....

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/e85-on-stock-engine.429416/

https://www.gtrlife.com/threads/e85-on-stock-motor.114884/

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1507-everything-you-need-to-know-about-e85/

Or how about some videos about stock engines making huge gains with e85?







I used to tune cars for a living. My best friend has been doing this stuff for more than 15 years.

If you like I'd be more than happy to link you to his shop's site.

You may think you know what you're talking about, but it's pretty obvious you don't.

Any new car doesn't need anything special to run up to 15% ethanol.

E85 is awesome and if you're tuned for it can make great power. You don't need a built engine. You may need to change out some seals and depending on how much power you want to make, make some upgrades to the fuel system. But that's true about making a lot of power even with pump gas.

Every one of your examples was forced induction and modified fuel system and tuning. I don't think anyone is saying that under those conditions e85 makes no power. Only that it does not make sense on a stock Jeep. If you are going with the livernois tune for flex fuel, absolutely it will be better.

 

[Jerrycronus]

Every one of your examples was forced induction and modified fuel system and tuning. I don't think anyone is saying that under those conditions e85 makes no power. Only that it does not make sense on a stock Jeep. If you are going with the livernois tune for flex fuel, absolutely it will be better.

Go back and look at the first comment I made and read it slower.

Never did I say put e85 in a stock jeep. I said it's government subsidized race gas.

 

[jeepingib]

Go back and look at the first comment I made and read it slower.

Never did I say put e85 in a stock jeep. I said it's government subsidized race gas.

Good grief, you are trying to argue a point that I agree with. But the fact is that it doesn't apply to the content of the thread. The OP had some misconceptions about e85 and while we were trying to educate him about how his STOCK Jeep would react to it, you jumped in and called it race gas, which is going to confuse a lay man who isn't educated about such things. Now can we agree that e85 is not the best idea for a completely stock Jeep? Yes it can be great and give you the ability to adjust timing and send more fuel to get more power if you modify it, but that was never in question.

 

[DaltonGang]

Speaking from experience, use Ethanol Free Gas as much as you can. My 3.6 runs much smoother, gets better gas mileage, has more power, and is more responsive, when running pure Ethanol Free.
I've only been able to fill up with it, a couple of times, over the past 3 years, but it is a huge difference. I also use premium 91-93 octane quite a lot, and the Ethanol Free out performs it.
The only engine problems Ethanol has given me, has been in my lawn equipment, and portable generators. That stuff just ruins small engines, over time.

 

[VKSheridan]

Good Lord, are you two still debating E85? The OP never mentioned it. OP was asking if spending the extra cash for premium to avoid Ethanol was worth it. OP didn’t mention Flex-Fuel, just premium.

Since over 98% of all the gasoline sold in North America contains Ethanol (including premium and E85), the debate if it is bad for a Jeep is mute.

We all have Ethanol in our tanks even if we buy “Ethanol free” because fuel distributors don’t wash out their pipes, tankers, hoses between batch deliveries.

The debate if higher octane premium is “better” for the OP’s Jeep is also mute. Unless the OP has increased their engine’s compression and experiencing pre-detonation that the ECM can’t resolve, there is no need to spend the extra money.

Higher octane does not mean more “boom” for a stock engine, it just means it is more likely to wait for the spark to light it off than the heat of compression.

It’s obvious the two of you are familiar with tuning so I think you can agree and help the OP overcome their fear of Ethanol and all the myths that the more gas costs, the better the Jeep will take the grandkids to the park…..

Peace and have a ducking fine day!

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