CR attempts to understand the Jeep thing

[grimmjeeper]

I agree with you.

The point you are not seeing, though, is this: when Jane Doe walks into the dealership to buy a vehicle, she is not thinking about actual vs perceived quality; she brings herself, perhaps her lap dog, and her own biases and personal opinions shaped over her lifetime. And with the help of a test drive and a skillful salesperson, she will likely sign on the dotted line.

Throughout my career, I've seen automakers, mostly domestic, waste decades debating which is the best method to measure quality. It is an important discussion, no doubt, but in the meantime other automakers, like Toyota and Honda, just got it done.

Similarly, we can argue until the cows come home whether Toyota, Honda, and now Subaru, deserve the quality reputation people give them. The bottom line is a majority of buyers believe it, and that is what sales, transaction prices, resale values and customer retention confirm.

Jeep is an oddball: it is a brand with a poor reliability reputation and an enviable durability perception. People see Jeeps doing all sorts of feats most cars can't even attempt, and due to timeless design and endless modifications, people see all Jeeps of all ages driving around, which helps to reinforce the perception that Jeeps must last a long time.

But that's just it. It's not about quality. It's about image.

People looking for an appliance will go buy whatever Asian family hauler that both meets their needs and fits in their budget. Part of it is the image that has been fostered about "quality". But a lot of it is the groupthink of all of the yuppie soccer moms with a cellphone in one hand and a latte in the other. People buy it because it's what all the other lemmings buy. You also have the lemmings who stick to one brand so they may buy a domestic or European version. The rich/wealthy lemmings buy the luxury brand because it has some nicer features but also so they can be seen driving an expensive vehicle. The "anti-lemmings" end up deliberately buying other brands so they can be seen doing something "different" yet they're driving just another bland crossover, just from a different brand.

But here's the thing. People are just as much lemmings when it comes to buying their sports cars, their luxury cars, their trucks, etc. All the same group-think dynamics apply there too.

And yes. Jeep buyers/owners are just as much lemmings as everyone else. Especially the rabid fans.

You're correct about image driving everything. Not just the image of the product. But the image people want to project when using the product. People want to fit in. People want to show off. People who are influenced by advertising and group think.

The perception of "quality" is just one of the minor factors used to influence some of the groups.


And to tie this back into Consumer Reports, they have one lens pointed in one direction looking at one image. They use bad statistics to further that image. And that's why most of the buying public has no use for them.

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[aldo98229]

But that's just it. It's not about quality. It's about image.

People looking for an appliance will go buy whatever Asian family hauler that both meets their needs and fits in their budget. Part of it is the image that has been fostered about "quality". But a lot of it is the groupthink of all of the yuppie soccer moms with a cellphone in one hand and a latte in the other. People buy it because it's what all the other lemmings buy. You also have the lemmings who stick to one brand so they may buy a domestic or European version. The rich/wealthy lemmings buy the luxury brand because it has some nicer features but also so they can be seen driving an expensive vehicle. The "anti-lemmings" end up deliberately buying other brands so they can be seen doing something "different" yet they're driving just another bland crossover, just from a different brand.

But here's the thing. People are just as much lemmings when it comes to buying their sports cars, their luxury cars, their trucks, etc. All the same group-think dynamics apply there too.

And yes. Jeep buyers/owners are just as much lemmings as everyone else. Especially the rabid fans.

You're correct about image driving everything. Not just the image of the product. But the image people want to project when using the product. People want to fit in. People want to show off. People who are influenced by advertising and group think.

The perception of "quality" is just one of the minor factors used to influence some of the groups.


And to tie this back into Consumer Reports, they have one lens pointed in one direction looking at one image. They use bad statistics to further that image. And that's why most of the buying public has no use for them.

Perhaps we are both saying the same thing. But I wouldn't lump quality perception together with image.

Jeep's brand image is "fun, freedom and adventure", "winner of WWII", "4WD", "American" and all that jazz. Jeep's quality perception on the other hand, are things like "poor reliability", "last a long time", and "terrible dealer service."

The point I am trying to make is that these quality perceptions influence a MAJORITY of buyers. Clearly not everyone, but a solid majority --about 70% of the market. The automakers that satisfy the needs of that majority do well on the market; the ones that don't are relegated to small niches.

Nissan is a good example of a brand that wants to be mainstream but struggles to satisfy the needs of that majority. Jeep has long been a niche brand that is fast becoming mainstream.

 

[AlgUSF]

Even those of us on this forum: Wrangler may be iconic and instantly recognizable, but had it to meet a minimum quality threshold before we gave ourselves permission to test drive one, let alone buy one.

Speak for yourself! This is my first Wrangler and I've wanted one for years, quality never entered into the picture. If it was a daily driver, yes quality would mean a lot more. I figure that I'll turn a wrench on this vehicle more than my other vehicles, I want to make sure to have 50K on it on the 5th year anniversary so that Jeep is responsible for as much "expensive repair" as possible.

 

[Deleted member 59498]

They should say: Red tow hooks cost an astonishing 10 15 thousand more dollars!

That would wrap their review up in a nice bow.

 

[grimmjeeper]

Perhaps we are both saying the same thing. But I wouldn't lump quality perception together with image.

Jeep's brand image is "fun, freedom and adventure", "winner of WWII", "4WD", "American" and all that jazz. Jeep's quality perception on the other hand, are things like "poor reliability", "last a long time", and "terrible dealer service."

The point I am trying to make is that these quality perceptions influence a MAJORITY of buyers. Clearly not everyone, but a solid majority --about 70% of the market. The automakers that satisfy the needs of that majority do well on the market; the ones that don't are relegated to small niches.

Nissan is a good example of a brand that wants to be mainstream but struggles to satisfy the needs of that majority. Jeep has long been a niche brand that is fast becoming mainstream.

We aren't saying the same thing. I'm not sure how best to communicate it with you.

You are saying that a majority of people factor quality in to the decision.

I'm saying that it's not a major consideration for a majority of the people. I'm saying people push quality way down on the list for a whole lot of reasons.

For brands like Toyota and Honda, quality is high on the list. For other brands, people choose to buy their vehicles for other reasons. Style, status, brand loyalty (even to a low quality brand), etc. are all more important to a whole lot of people.

If quality was a factor in the decisions of a majority of people's auto purchases, half or more of the existing brands would have disappeared a long time ago.

 

[AlgUSF]

Since I don't subscribe to CR, I looked at Car and driver to see what the "competition" is. Short of the Bronco, there is nothing like the Wrangler on the market. "Uh, I was going to pick up a Wrangler but got a Telluride instead!" (yeah, right)

Here is C&D's list by rank.
1) Kia Telluride (LOL!)
2) Hyundai Palisade (Double LOL!)
3) Jeep Grand Cherokee L
4) Ford Bronco (good luck getting one of these)
5) Mazda CX-9 (Triple LOL!)
.......
14) Jeep Wrangler

 

[Low_Spark]

For me it's about freedom and the jeeps personification of it... the freedom to go where I want, when I want. I'm not constrained by lines on pavement, the weather, the terrain, doors, or even a roof. Also there is an identity component to it, sure there are a ton of wranglers on the road, but none are the same as mine, it is inherently part of who I am, just like all of my other wranglers have been. I am my jeep and my jeep is me.

 

[Kyanche]

I park at Trader Joes between a Silver Sky Metallic Toyota Rav-4 and a Crystal White Pearl Subaru Forester and as I step out to admire my Jeep, I have this tinge of sadness inside and wonder what life would have been like had I just bought the clearly superior car from the land of the rising sun.

Not really.. lol.

 

[OldMarine]

Forbes online once tried to capture this back when the JL first came out. The article was about how critical the new Wrangler was to FCA and the risk they would take if they blew it.

David Benjamuri wrote it and I think did a great job of trying to capture the Jeep culture and history. He interviewed a few folks off this forum, and others elsewhere, too. He then caught the disease and went right out and bought a Wrangler and took it on a Jeep Jamboree with his family.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidv...rse-with-the-new-wrangler-jl/?sh=4c96548734f0

What a great article. As a soon to be JLUW owner (Est. ship day 9/10) it was an interesting take on the JL evolution.
Let’s hope JEEP continues to embrace the rugged, go anywhere capability.

 

[TheRaven]

But again, you had to believe that buying a product from Jeep/Chrysler/FCA/Stellantis was worth the risk. If you thought that you were going to be getting into a pile of dung, you would not have left GM and taken the plunge. Admittedly, often times this happens subconsciously, but that doesn't mean it didn't occur.

But what i'm saying is that there is no "pile of dung" anymore. Any of the major automakers can supply you with a solid vehicle. So to my personal situation - I was simply willing to accept a much lower bar of quality in exchange for two of the coolest vehicles on the market. Quality is a factor, it's just not a primary driver. I am living proof of my point.

So I want to make sure that I make clear that quality is definitely a consideration for most buyers if not all. It's just not the primary one. I know a guy who is the director of product development for an FCA OEM partner (one especially relevant to the subject of this site in fact) and he illustrated the concept very well I think - "people buy cars on image - when you see a commercial for a car, what do you see first and most? It's always the vehicle doing extreme versions of what it does - plowing through snow or sand, drifting and spinning tires, showing up to a fancy hotel with a hot girl in a shiny dress getting out of the passenger side, or even maybe just the worlds most photogenic family piling in with golf clubs and soccer balls. If people bought cars on quality, they wouldn't even show the car until the end...they'd just show the cleaned and prepped assembly line and talk about all the awards and high marks the car has earned. Instead those are shown at the very end of the commercial, or not at all". That says it all. People buy cars on image, not quality.

 

[rickinAZ]

Here we go again. Find something you don't like, label it as <insert whatever>, and let everyone on a generally like-minded internet group pile on.

They're collecting data from actual owners of the vehicles. They can't control how many people send back the surveys, but if you just want to look at the numbers that are reported back to them, then just look at the numbers and don't bother with what they write.

Frankly, if they sent me a survey on my Wrangler, I'd be honest and list that its reliability has been the worst out of any vehicle I've bought myself. A replaced Uconnect system, a broken transfer case, a sheared-off piece of metal in my driveshaft, cracked windshield, and recently my end links and sway bar trying to kill each other. Most of those things were under warranty, but I've never had a vehicle that spent so much time in the shop.

Is the capability and convertible nature enough to make up for that? So far, for me... yes, but barely. My patience is starting to wear a bit thin, and the next repair close to 1,000 bucks is gonna make me think long and hard about whether I stick around.

Everyone wants something different. We need to stop dehumanizing people who don't think like us. Cuz guess what? More people still want vehicles that are fuel-efficient and reliable over vehicles that can off-road. Consumer Reports has always made it clear that they are focused on what most of their readership values (like most media outlets): safety and reliability.

So if you keep getting "mad" at CR or whatever, use your brain: you're probably not their target audience, and that's fine, but why waste your time raging at them on some internet forum?

Well said. The distain for people not like "us" has gotten more vocal of late. It's an ugly trend.

 

[aldo98229]

But what i'm saying is that there is no "pile of dung" anymore. Any of the major automakers can supply you with a solid vehicle. So to my personal situation - I was simply willing to accept a much lower bar of quality in exchange for two of the coolest vehicles on the market. Quality is a factor, it's just not a primary driver. I am living proof of my point.

So I want to make sure that I make clear that quality is definitely a consideration for most buyers if not all. It's just not the primary one. I know a guy who is the director of product development for an FCA OEM partner (one especially relevant to the subject of this site in fact) and he illustrated the concept very well I think - "people buy cars on image - when you see a commercial for a car, what do you see first and most? It's always the vehicle doing extreme versions of what it does - plowing through snow or sand, drifting and spinning tires, showing up to a fancy hotel with a hot girl in a shiny dress getting out of the passenger side, or even maybe just the worlds most photogenic family piling in with golf clubs and soccer balls. If people bought cars on quality, they wouldn't even show the car until the end...they'd just show the cleaned and prepped assembly line and talk about all the awards and high marks the car has earned. Instead those are shown at the very end of the commercial, or not at all". That says it all. People buy cars on image, not quality.

Sorry, I cannot agree with that. The data we collect and analyze does not back that up.

Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge have spent the last several decades trying to avoid having to invest in the level of quality to compete head on with Toyota and other automakers known for quality. When Doug Betts was in charge of quality at Chrylser, 7-10 years ago, he attempted to engage Consumer Reports. But they just weren't interested. In their minds, Chrysler made crap products and nothing was going to change their minds. So Chrysler gave up and went back to pretending that quality is not a major differentiator.

Thing is, this is a crazy market. When the market is booming, everyone looks like a hero. When consumers feel secure and optimistic about their jobs, they allow themselves to buy products from automakers they would not normally buy from. It is only when the market saturates and contracts that you can really tell which products they prefer; it is usually the boring but reliable Toyotas and Hondas that they trust will get through the tough times.

Every time there is a recession, the Big 3 lose market share.

 

[rickinAZ]

CR rating things it doesn't really understand is only the tip of the modern iceberg. Today, MBAs are in control of practically everything and they're taught to use standardized metrics for everything. They often, if not usually, don't have a clue about what they're measuring; but, they're damned sure going to develop a spreadsheet with metrics to assess it ...because that's all they were taught to do.

There is an example of this trend that is truly worse than CR being arrogant enough to think they know how to measure off road vehicles. Plenty of recent articles have reported on how software engineers looking for post-pandemic jobs are being subjected to a series of multiple elaborate hiring interviews that corporate HR people have convinced their management are the way to go.

These elaborate hiring interviews, often seven or eight of them, can actually keep the applicant on the hook for weeks while corporate HR people orchestrate hour upon hour of multiple "tests" to document the applicant's coding speed and ability. Through these tests, the corporate HR people effectively have the applicants donating tens of thousands of dollars of unpaid coding time and labor to provide test results that the HR people can only hope to even subjectively assess. But, again, they've seduced corporate management into supporting this circus.

Why is this happening? Well, there are many reasons; but, one is that MBAs who weren't good enough for accounting, but could get through with a personnel management specialization, need jobs too. So, now we have them organized into SHRM and creating this elaborate job security for HR people racket. CR is just another variation of the same sort of reality through metrics thing.

So now MBAs are the bad guys? Didn't see that coming on the weekly CR bashing thread. Nice segue.

 

[Windshieldfarmer]

Since I don't subscribe to CR, I looked at Car and driver to see what the "competition" is. Short of the Bronco, there is nothing like the Wrangler on the market. "Uh, I was going to pick up a Wrangler but got a Telluride instead!" (yeah, right)

Here is C&D's list by rank.
1) Kia Telluride (LOL!)
2) Hyundai Palisade (Double LOL!)
3) Jeep Grand Cherokee L
4) Ford Bronco (good luck getting one of these)
5) Mazda CX-9 (Triple LOL!)
.......
14) Jeep Wrangler

Just returned from a few days on the trails in Colorado. Had I been driving a Telluride I would still be on one of the trails…stranded. An apples to oranges comparison. Kind of like comparing a dual sport KTM to a medium sized Honda road bike. The KTM is not very good on the road, takes a lot of upkeep, but hauls a?? off-road. The Honda…nice and quiet and reliable…and that’s it.

 

[LarryB]

They do a significant amount of testing on a track, which is ideal for many vehicles. It is easy to perform acceleration tests, turning radiuses and other items and that is useful when comparing a Honda Civic to a car from Kia or Toyota. If you strictly use those results, it is reasonable to say that the Wrangler performs badly compared to a CRV or RAV4. This kind of information would be useful to the average CR reader, who skews towards cars like their favourite, the Subaru Legacy.

Off-road capability, fun factor and an incredibly passionate, loyal fan base will be a huge part of our collective reasoning for buying a Wrangler, but this is not what CR measures.

No need to bash them, they just don’t see things the way we do. Neither does my wife, for that matter …

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