Couple geometry questions.

[Kurt0]

Hey all. Been doing searching and i think im getting this straight.

changing control arms vs drop brackets in the front: the change of control arms gives best clearance (and maybe flex?) but brackets give better ride, better road handling, and less brake dive. Is that accurate? This video seems to cover it:


also, what would be the difference between track bars and track bar brackets? One to adjust axle location and one to move the roll center?

im not terribly concerned with building the perfect rock crawler. So im thinking about spring/shock set up for my trim level; adding the AEV front drop brackets, and then coming up with some other solution for track bars, brackets, and drag link. My goal is to have the truck drive as close to stock as possible on the road when lifted.

thanks!

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[RedundanT]

Drop (GEO) brackets locate the the stock arms in a lower/forward position aligning the axle to the proper "geometry" for better drivability. Aftermarket control arms move the axle by being longer or shorter than stock to achieve basically the same thing. However, the anti-dive characteristic you get with GEO brackets will not be seen with different control arms. If you want good on road manners and are not concerned with rock crawling then kit's like the AEV with GEO arms may be your ticket.

 

[Kurt0]

Drop (GEO) brackets locate the the stock arms in a lower/forward position aligning the axle to the proper "geometry" for better drivability. Aftermarket control arms move the axle by being longer or shorter than stock to achieve basically the same thing. However, the anti-dive characteristic you get with GEO brackets will not be seen with different control arms. If you want good on road manners and are not concerned with rock crawling then kit's like the AEV with GEO arms may be your ticket.

thanks. im definitely
ore concerned about road manners at speed and under load than i am a couple inches at the bracket.

The kit specific for the Mojave comes with new lower control arms, am I adding the brackets to that kit for the anti dive? Or tossing the control arms in favor of the brackets?

 

[Tom73]

Nice find and good explanation. I'm considering what I want to do once I lift my JLR 2.5". I won't be rock crawling and want to maintain or improve road handling. With such a short wheelbase any geometry change is amplified. I think drop brackets are something I should use.

 

[RedundanT]

thanks. im definitely
ore concerned about road manners at speed and under load than i am a couple inches at the bracket.

The kit specific for the Mojave comes with new lower control arms, am I adding the brackets to that kit for the anti dive? Or tossing the control arms in favor of the brackets?

You could use both, but the lowers would need to be adjusted to stock length. I really wouldn't use both.

 

[Kurt0]

You could use both, but the lowers would need to be adjusted to stock length. I really wouldn't use both.

gotcha. how much of a difference between the two are we talking during driving? Are these anti dive differences “academic” or can it legitimately be felt/measured? I figure there is a reason AEV did it the way they did with brackets?

basically, i see i can either just order the kit with the control arms and call it good; or i can do the cheaper version which is the specific spring/shock ext/sway link kit and then add the aev brackets and a bunch of metal cloak track bars, rear control arms, drag link etc and complete the kit that way. I dont mind paying a bit more if im getting better performance.

 

[RedundanT]

I had Geo brackets on my two JK's, currently running Core 4X4 full control arm kit on the JLUR. A comparison would not be accurate, but to me the only difference is less nose dive when braking using Geo brackets. If wanting good street manners a kit like the MetalCloak, or Clayton Overland will have joints that soak up the harsh vibrations of road driving. Those two would have a more "stock" feel. Kits that use full Johnny Joints will be a little less so. I had an AEV kit on my JK Sahara, and the Mopar 2" with Geo brackets on my JKR. The JKR always got me where I wanted to go, and never felt hampered by using the brackets. My area is wooded fire road type trails and maybe a few rocks but not Moab type topography. If I lived out west I'd probably say a full arm kit, midwest or east, then either way would do. Honestly the puny ground clearance you lose with Geo brackets is no hindrance.

 

[Kurt0]

Thanks @RedundanT

 

[Kreepin1]

also, what would be the difference between track bars and track bar brackets? One to adjust axle location and one to move the roll center?

Note that this applies to control arms too, you could start with drop brackets and add control arms if you need to move the tires in the wheel wells.

I didn't watch the video, but it's clear you have a good handle on the advantages and disadvantages of each approach. My buddy has a MetalCloak lift on his JK and added REAR drop brackets which really improved his ability to climb steep stuff. My point is drop brackets front and rear will give you the closest to stock handling. Here is an example; you are going around a cloverleaf and accelerate to merge with traffic. Short arms in the rear will cause the rear of the Jeep to lift while drop brackets behave more like stock (on my stock JK Rubicon the rear actually squats under power).

 

[Kurt0]

Note that this applies to control arms too, you could start with drop brackets and add control arms if you need to move the tires in the wheel wells.

I didn't watch the video, but it's clear you have a good handle on the advantages and disadvantages of each approach. My buddy has a MetalCloak lift on his JK and added REAR drop brackets which really improved his ability to climb steep stuff. My point is drop brackets front and rear will give you the closest to stock handling. Here is an example; you are going around a cloverleaf and accelerate to merge with traffic. Short arms in the rear will cause the rear of the Jeep to lift while drop brackets behave more like stock (on my stock JK Rubicon the rear actually squats under power).

ok thats helpful. To make sure im clear; you mean control arm brackets vs shorter control arms correct?

can i do track bar relocation brackets with adjustable track bars?

 

[Kreepin1]

ok thats helpful. To make sure im clear; you mean control arm brackets vs shorter control arms correct?

can i do track bar relocation brackets with adjustable track bars?

I mean they both do the same thing. Brackets help restore geometry changed by a lift, it doesn't matter if they are for control arms or track bars.

Stock control arms and track bars are not adjustable, so you can't adjust where the tires are (side-side for track bars, front-back for control arms).

Yes you can do both, but I would start with the brackets and see where you are before ordering control arms and track bars. Actually, I would look for a complete lift that uses drop brackets. If they think you need arms and bars you probably do. You can get into trouble mixing and matching pieces from different vendors. Much better with a single vendor to prevent the finger pointing...

 

[Kreepin1]

What wheels and tires are you planning to run? I ask for two reasons. First, too little offset can cause handling issues. Second, the factory front control arms are bent to allow tire clearance. Some lifts have straight control arms (which are stronger) and require quite a bit of offset to clear.

 

[Kurt0]

What wheels and tires are you planning to run? I ask for two reasons. First, too little offset can cause handling issues. Second, the factory front control arms are bent to allow tire clearance. Some lifts have straight control arms (which are stronger) and require quite a bit of offset to clear.

good point. Im going to avoid poke. Right now torn between AEV Savegre 2 with a +25 offset or if i decide to be vain, Fuel Covert 20” with +20 offset.

 

[Kreepin1]

Alrighty then, when you order be sure the control arms are compatible with 5.8" of backspacing!

 

[Roky]

ok thats helpful. To make sure im clear; you mean control arm brackets vs shorter control arms correct?

can i do track bar relocation brackets with adjustable track bars?

I wouldn’t use a relo bracket for front track bar, it will raise it, and it will get out of parallel with the drag link, which will cause bump steer. Use adjustable track bar in front, and relo bracket in the rear with stock track bar for now. Your not lifting high enough to get that far off on geometry.

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