Clutch Recall (FCA W12 | 20V-124) on 2018-2020 JL Manuals [overheating clutch pressure plate]

[DanW]

I wouldn’t be so optimistic. That is exactly what they will do. That was their “fix” for the bad intakes on the 2nd Gen Rams. On the forums we called it the “death flash” the only difference being then you only got the DF if you complained about pinging. This being a recall will probably be done without your consent if you take it into a dealer for any reason.

I wouldn't call it optimism but rather realism. Retarding the power won't be enough to eliminate the issue in one with the problem. You could cut the torque in half and it will still be enough to generate massive heat if there is significant slipping.

Keep in mind, we're all reacting to something written by NHTSA, and there is another somewhat contradictory document from NHTSA saying it would only do it if excessive heat is detected. We have not heard from FCA directly on it. We will sometime soon, I'm sure. So right now, we're all guessing, whether from an optimistic or pessimistic point of view. Either way, just a guess. So pick which government bureaucrat you want to believe at NHTSA. They are a middle man, and middle men mess things up in translation.

So I've decided not to get too worked up on nothing more than guesses and worries. Not worth it. Concerned, yes. Sky falling? No.

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[WreckEm711]

So I've decided not to get too worked up on nothing more than guesses and worries. Not worth it. Concerned, yes. Sky falling? No.

But I'll barely be able to make it out of the mall parking lot with what they're planning to do to my beloved rolling yellow box!

 

[neil]

This whole thread is stressful - coming from a guy waiting on his 6-speed to be delivered...

It will all be ok. You will enjoy your new manual when it arrives. There is a slight probability that you could be consumed in a ball of flames if you treat it wrong.

Tesla owners handle it.

I've seen florida drivers. You have nothing to be worried about.

 

[ALRUI]

Million dollar question... how are they detecting temp? There is no temp sensing equipment in that area that can detect the temp of the clutch.

Exactly NO SENSOR! I have been under the vehicle many times and theres no wiring indicating a sensor and none of the clutch replacement tutorials show anything such as a sensor along with folks here who have replaced their clutch themselves stating there is no sensor, thus there isn't one.

 

[Bejer]

I hope I’m overreacting, but I have zero faith that this will do anything to fix the problem. I personally will probably just avoid taking to the dealer for any reason from here on out.

 

[mgroeger]

My personal take is if they are talking monitoring temps it has got to be through a "calculation" of other temps, rpms, etc... to which I still say no thank you.

I've had no indicators of problems with mine and I have def put it through it's paces from 80 mph cruising on the highway to 1 mph, 4LO, high rpms, climbing up rock walls with an occasional stall thrown in here and there for good measure... lol.
When this clutch finally goes I'll look at the Center Force version and if I ever have it at the dealer I will be adamant that under no circumstance are they to do this software update.

 

[MrMischief]

Seems to me that a condition which I would use to reduce engine torque would be when in a high gear, low RPM, and full throttle is applied. Seems like that would be the most likely time for a clutch to slip enough to over heat. So in my head, that is I would focus on detuning the engine to reduce torque. Does the JL have a way of knowing which forward gear is selected?

There was talk elsewhere in this thread about how manuals had been fine for so many years. To me it seems that what has changed is we now have overdrives with ratios for extreme fuel economy. The JL's top gear is what.... 0.72:1? Something like that. The TJ was 0.84. Perhaps these ratios combined with people who are too busy texting and eating their In N Out that they can't/won't shift are leading to more slipping/heat than expected. When someone describes driving like a "grandma" with a manual transmission my first thought is they probably use as high of a gear as possible as much as possible. I'm pretty sure someone here who had the failure described themselves as a "grandma/grandpa driver". But the person who likes to drive and run the engine "hard" are more likely to use the lower gears, higher engine RPMs but potentially less heat through the clutch.

 

[mgroeger]

Seems to me that a condition which I would use to reduce engine torque would be when in a high gear, low RPM, and full throttle is applied. Seems like that would be the most likely time for a clutch to slip enough to over heat. So in my head, that is I would focus on detuning the engine to reduce torque. Does the JL have a way of knowing which forward gear is selected?

There was talk elsewhere in this thread about how manuals had been fine for so many years. To me it seems that what has changed is we now have overdrives with ratios for extreme fuel economy. The JL's top gear is what.... 0.72:1? Something like that. The TJ was 0.84. Perhaps these ratios combined with people who are too busy texting and eating their In N Out that they can't/won't shift are leading to more slipping/heat than expected.

I don't think it has anything to do with the gearing and has everything to do with the dual clutch.

 

[MrMischief]

I don't think it has anything to do with the gearing and has everything to do with the dual clutch.

Wow. my bad. I had no idea there was any wrangler anywhere in the world with a dual clutch transmission. I thought this was for the traditional manual.

 

[Toycrusher]

It's not a dual clutch like the Corvette. It's a dual mass flywheel with a single-throw twin-disc clutch. A "Dual clutch" transmission usually refers to having two independent clutches each connected to a gear set.

Wow. my bad. I had no idea there was any wrangler anywhere in the world with a dual clutch transmission. I thought this was for the traditional manual.

 

[Spaffy]

Little concerned about this and my Jeep order. I will be staying tuned to this one!

First I didn't like how big the Jeep has gotten since my last Wrangler, a TJ. Delt with it.

Didn't like how much computer control there is now. Delt with it.

Didn't like the dual door group requires power windows and locks (which I didn't want/know at order. Honestly, is it really important to have power locks on HALF doors.... ) Delt with it.

Now more clutch issues and possibly detuning the engine?

I'm ok with new cars having issues that will be fixed properly, but not with band aid fixes of blanket detuning. Depending on how this detuning is done; I don't know I want to deal with that.

Depending on what the fix is, the only way to tell Jeep that it's not OK is if people stop buying them. Not that I'm sure Jeep cares about the few manuals they sell a year anyways.

Maybe I'm overthinking this. Or maybe I just need to walk away and look for clean used TJ....

 

[intentsrig]

Everyone should read this about dual mass flywheel. Specifically about the issues. It literally says clutch slippage

https://www.phoenixfriction.com/t-purpose-of-dual-mass-flywheel.aspx

 

[ChattVol]

I don't think it has anything to do with the gearing and has everything to do with the dual clutch.

It's the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[DanW]

Exactly NO SENSOR! I have been under the vehicle many times and theres no wiring indicating a sensor and none of the clutch replacement tutorials show anything such as a sensor along with folks here who have replaced their clutch themselves stating there is no sensor, thus there isn't one.

But, it would be very easy to drill and tap a hole in the bell housing and insert a simple temp sensor, run the wire a short distance, and connect it to the PCM. We don't have any info on that being a part of the solution from NHTSA, so I'm not saying that's a part of it, but it would be easy to do. Then the reprogram would include simple code to read data from the sensor and trigger a limp home mode, which is likely already in the engine program for other events, anyway.

Another possibility, and again THIS IS SPECULATION, could be that the engine rpms could show a certain peculiar pattern imperceptible to your butt cheeks, but most certainly present that indicate an excessively slipping clutch. If the PCM is programmed to detect a pattern within given parameters, it could then be used to trigger the limp home condition, or de-powering of the engine, if you prefer.

But I don't think any of us know about each and every one of the many different sensors that might be repurposed or dual purposed to help detect a problem, elsewhere in the transmission or engine, either. The average car in 1980 had more computing power than the Saturn V rocket, command module, and lunar module, combined. So imagine what the PCM in one of these things can potentially do.

Drove my Jeep today. It felt like it always has. Perfect. It'll be going to Moab for the EJS before this recall gets done, too. I'm not worried at all about it failing. The only worry I've got is caused by one government bureaucrat who wrote the solution in a way that makes me wary that the solution could be unacceptable. The other one wrote it in a way that describes something I would be fine with. But they aren't the ones creating the actual solution. They only typed what they think they heard. Much like I do right here, sometimes.

 

[beaups]

But, it would be very easy to drill and tap a hole in the bell housing and insert a simple temp sensor, run the wire a short distance, and connect it to the PCM. We don't have any info on that being a part of the solution from NHTSA, so I'm not saying that's a part of it, but it would be easy to do. Then the reprogram would include simple code to read data from the sensor and trigger a limp home mode, which is likely already in the engine program for other events, anyway.

Another possibility, and again THIS IS SPECULATION, could be that the engine rpms could show a certain peculiar pattern imperceptible to your butt cheeks, but most certainly present that indicate an excessively slipping clutch. If the PCM is programmed to detect a pattern within given parameters, it could then be used to trigger the limp home condition, or de-powering of the engine, if you prefer.

But I don't think any of us know about each and every one of the many different sensors that might be repurposed or dual purposed to help detect a problem, elsewhere in the transmission or engine, either. The average car in 1980 had more computing power than the Saturn V rocket, command module, and lunar module, combined. So imagine what the PCM in one of these things can potentially do.

Drove my Jeep today. It felt like it always has. Perfect. It'll be going to Moab for the EJS before this recall gets done, too. I'm not worried at all about it failing. The only worry I've got is caused by one government bureaucrat who wrote the solution in a way that makes me wary that the solution could be unacceptable. The other one wrote it in a way that describes something I would be fine with. But they aren't the ones creating the actual solution. They only typed what they think they heard. Much like I do right here, sometimes.

I agree but the real fix would be to put a proper clutch assembly in that doesn't slip when fully engaged, but that's probably too hard and expensive so they'll just cripple us instead. Slipping getting off the line and between gears isn't going to overheat anything, it's high-friction (fully engaged) slipping that will cause the temps to go crazy and that type of slipping should never happen in the first case. Too early to tell but this plan just feels all wrong...

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