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Caster Setting - Metal Cloak Game Changer 3-1/2" (Death Wobble)

Jeff2018

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Hey Everyone,

I'm hoping to find another JLUR with a Metal Cloak Game Changer 3-1/2" lift who may have found it necessary to change caster to eliminate death wobble.

The details of our JLUR. It's a diesel. 3-1/2" lift, 37"MTRs.

1,500 miles, so I'm pretty sure we haven't worn out the ball joints.

The wobble occurs between about 35 mph and 45 mph. Sometimes I can drive out of it, other times it gets violent and I need to stop. It's happened 12 to 14 different times.

Toe changed from about 3/16" in, to 1/8" out. This helped some. I've experienced it a couple of times since changing the toe. No violent cases; but, still not something that's comfortable.

I had a shop in Wichita install the lift. They didn't have any problem when it was test driven. I'm in Indy, so as much as they want to help, the 700 mile trip to Wichita each way is something that I would prefer not to do.

The alignment readout after the install of the lift showed 5.1 degree of caster on both sides.

Metal Cloak's instructions are pretty clear. There is a distance specified for the length of each control arm. A caster angle of 6 degrees is shown in a table in the installation instructions along with the dimensions for the upper and lower control arms.

I also spoke with MC and was told that the caster should be between 6 and 6-1/2 degrees. (A friend in Moab runs his JL/MC lift Jeeps at 7 degrees.)

The alignment printout after the lift at 5.1 degrees is quite a bit less than the 6 degrees shown in the MC table. There is also a note in the MC document that these specs are just a starting point and that a "Suspension Specialist" should be seen.

I have checked the lengths as best I can from under the Jeep. They look to be correct.

I contacted a MC dealer here in Indy who installed a friends MC lift. The friend has quite a few miles on his JL with the MC lift, and so I thought it would be a good place to start.

My thought was that I would have them adjust the caster to a little over 6 degrees. From the conversations I had with MC, for every 1/4" shorter there is about 1/2 degree increase in caster. So, I should go from 5.1 to about 6.1 with 1/2" decrease in length on each side.

When I contacted the shop, though, they are a little reluctant to do this. When they install a MC lift, they measure the length and don't check the alignment. I can tell they are reluctant to change it. Evidently in the past they have set up a suspension, taken it to an alignment shop to be checked and then end up going back and forth. One of their main concerns with the increased caster angle is drive line vibration. Although it won't guarantee that vibration won't happen, I did replace both drivelines with upgraded Tom Woods type for the lift.

So, best case, I have them double-check measurements and recheck all the fasteners/torque settings. If everything looks good, then I would like them to shorten the upper control arms. (I'm not sure that they will agree to do it, though.) I'll get the Jeep checked for alignment after that.

Sorry for the long-winded message. Mainly wondering if anyone else has gotten rid of death wobble on a similar setup by changing the caster angle. I'd also appreciate any thoughts about things to avoid.

Take Care,

Jeff
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GATORB8

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Hmm, IIRC I’m 6.1 and 6.4 caster on exactly MCs lengths.

Do you have the alignement printout? Toe in drives better than toe out on mine.

What tire pressure?
 

word302

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Driveline vibration is a non-factor on the JL due to the FAD. It is pretty common to need to make adjustments beyond the recommended starting point that MC publishes due to variance between vehicles. That number is just that, a suggested starting point. I hate to tell you this but I don't think more caster is going to solve your wobble issue. Something is worn or loose.
 
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Jeff2018

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Hi Matt,

Thanks for the reply.

I've played with tire pressures between 31 psi and 38 psi.

I'm attaching a .pdf of the alignment printout taken from a screen shot. It's a little hard to read. Sorry.

(The alignment info is before I set the toe out.)

Thanks again.

Jeff
 

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Jeff2018

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Hi,

Driveline vibration is a non-factor on the JL due to the FAD. It is pretty common to need to make adjustments beyond the recommended starting point that MC publishes due to variance between vehicles. That number is just that, a suggested starting point. I hate to tell you this but I don't think more caster is going to solve your wobble issue. Something is worn or loose.
I definitely can't dispute the possibility of something loose. Something being worn, though at 1,500 mostly pavement miles I would think would be pretty unlikely, although I suppose it's possible.

So as far as the information from MC only being a starting point, any thoughts on where someone might start looking for a shop with that kind of experience?

Thanks,

Jeff
 

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word302

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Hi,



I definitely can't dispute the possibility of something loose. Something being worn, though at 1,500 mostly pavement miles I would think would be pretty unlikely, although I suppose it's possible.

So as far as the information from MC only being a starting point, any thoughts on where someone might start looking for a shop with that kind of experience?

Thanks,

Jeff
It's kind of suspension lift 101. If a shop isn't willing to make tweaks then you're at the wrong shop. As far as recommendations I can't really help. I'm on the other side of the country and do everything myself because finding anyone competent to work on your rig is nearly impossible these days and I prefer knowing everything is done right.
 

GATORB8

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Hi Matt,

Thanks for the reply.

I've played with tire pressures between 31 psi and 38 psi.

I'm attaching a .pdf of the alignment printout taken from a screen shot. It's a little hard to read. Sorry.

(The alignment info is before I set the toe out.)

Thanks again.

Jeff
So, toed out, mine was pretty jumpy. Running 33 psi is the sweet spot on my 37 KO2 D loads.
Assume your axles look pretty centered? I’d definitely make sure the Track bar bolts are tight.
One other thing, I’m not sure it would cause this, but the control arms have an angle welded into the ends, those should Mammenga the two ends parallel.
 

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It's kind of suspension lift 101. If a shop isn't willing to make tweaks then you're at the wrong shop. As far as recommendations I can't really help. I'm on the other side of the country and do everything myself because finding anyone competent to work on your rig is nearly impossible these days and I prefer knowing everything is done right.
I am the same way. I have been doing my own alignments for years. i would run a very slight toe in rather than out by the way. 1/8 at the most. You can do a better job in your driveway than alot of the shops out there. I would recommend checking everything. All adjustments, lengths set to recommended lengths and torque every bolt that was touched yourself. i just did a MC Gamechanger 2.5 and other than straightening the steering wheel , I didn’t have to change anything. It drives great with MC settings.
 

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If the shop isn’t willing to change caster and toe settings I would question their ability to even install a lift properly. Sounds like you will need to check over their work and than if you don’t want to do a drive way alignment find a good alignment shop in your area and deal directly with them. Keep looking for an alignment shop until you find one that will adjust to the caster you want.
 

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The controls arms need to be adjusted to have the proper caster. The numbers that MC provides are a starting point for the installation to get you close, not hard set final numbers that they have to remain at or your jeep explodes lol.

Just find a shop that knows how to do an alignment and they should be able to take care of you, this is a very straightforward fix to have done.
 

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6-7 caster and 3/16-1/4 toe in with 40s . Cruises 90+ no hands 🙌
 
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Jeff2018

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Hi Matt,

So, toed out, mine was pretty jumpy. Running 33 psi is the sweet spot on my 37 KO2 D loads.
Assume your axles look pretty centered? I’d definitely make sure the Track bar bolts are tight.
One other thing, I’m not sure it would cause this, but the control arms have an angle welded into the ends, those should Mammenga the two ends parallel.
It's great to have a well mannered JL again.

I found a shop about 1/2 hour away from me who had some experience with lifts, and who has done work for a friend. Took the JL in yesterday morning, and was able to talk them through what I wanted. The Owner drives a JL Hemi, so he does have experience with the way a Jeep should drive.

He drove mine and really was concerned about the steering. He thought it was unsafe to driving. It never kicked into full-blown death wobble when he drove it; but, it was twitchy and unstable.

He was convinced that installing a dual stabilizer would be the best solution. They checked all of the fasteners before doing anything and found everything was tight. In spite of many people's opinion that finding a good alignment shop to do this work would pretty straight forward... in general it's not easy to find a shop to do an alignment that's out of spec for the JL. I thought I was going to have to arm wrestle him to have the caster set the way I wanted. So, helping him understand that I would pay their shop rates for the change and be responsible for running the alignment out of spec, they went ahead with the alignment.

So, baseline on the caster was 5.4 degrees. I told them I wanted between 6.25 and 6.5. They were able to get it set to 6.3 on both sides. (Trying to take it another step bumped it up to 6.8.) Final printout shows 6.3 right and left.

The owner drove it after setting to 6.3. He was amazed at the difference in the way it drove. He couldn't believe changing the caster less than a degree would change the steering behavior so much. And driving it home, I felt comfortable. I drove it about 40 miles yesterday on rough roads, smooth roads, at varying speeds and it felt good to me.

Because my changing of the toe didn't solve the problem previously, I had it reset to 1/8" in while they were doing the caster changes. Those are the only two alignment changes that were made.

So the lesson learned is that even if I would have done this lift myself, and done it according to the Metal Cloak measurements, there's no way to do the kind of alignment checks needed without the proper equipment. For me, the caster change made a difference between a un-driveable and a comfortable Jeep. The recommended MC lengths may be a good starting point; but, confirming/adjusting caster seems like something that should be more clear in the MC instructions.

Thanks for your input.

Jeff
 

GATORB8

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Hi Matt,



It's great to have a well mannered JL again.

I found a shop about 1/2 hour away from me who had some experience with lifts, and who has done work for a friend. Took the JL in yesterday morning, and was able to talk them through what I wanted. The Owner drives a JL Hemi, so he does have experience with the way a Jeep should drive.

He drove mine and really was concerned about the steering. He thought it was unsafe to driving. It never kicked into full-blown death wobble when he drove it; but, it was twitchy and unstable.

He was convinced that installing a dual stabilizer would be the best solution. They checked all of the fasteners before doing anything and found everything was tight. In spite of many people's opinion that finding a good alignment shop to do this work would pretty straight forward... in general it's not easy to find a shop to do an alignment that's out of spec for the JL. I thought I was going to have to arm wrestle him to have the caster set the way I wanted. So, helping him understand that I would pay their shop rates for the change and be responsible for running the alignment out of spec, they went ahead with the alignment.

So, baseline on the caster was 5.4 degrees. I told them I wanted between 6.25 and 6.5. They were able to get it set to 6.3 on both sides. (Trying to take it another step bumped it up to 6.8.) Final printout shows 6.3 right and left.

The owner drove it after setting to 6.3. He was amazed at the difference in the way it drove. He couldn't believe changing the caster less than a degree would change the steering behavior so much. And driving it home, I felt comfortable. I drove it about 40 miles yesterday on rough roads, smooth roads, at varying speeds and it felt good to me.

Because my changing of the toe didn't solve the problem previously, I had it reset to 1/8" in while they were doing the caster changes. Those are the only two alignment changes that were made.

So the lesson learned is that even if I would have done this lift myself, and done it according to the Metal Cloak measurements, there's no way to do the kind of alignment checks needed without the proper equipment. For me, the caster change made a difference between a un-driveable and a comfortable Jeep. The recommended MC lengths may be a good starting point; but, confirming/adjusting caster seems like something that should be more clear in the MC instructions.

Thanks for your input.

Jeff
Great to hear. Enjoy!
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