Can I remove this from my winch ?

[191185]

Hey guys,

So I am installing my Smittybilt XRC Gen3 winch, however, the rear "tie bar" in interfering with my front grill.

Does anyone know if the tie bars are structual / needed for strength / support? Or if they are puley cosmetic ?

SmittyBilt gives you the option of mounting the controls over the drum, using the tie bars, or over the motor using a different adaptor. I'm looking to mount it over the motor and not use the tie bars . ..

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[Headbarcode]

The tie bars are most certainly part of the structure that maintains the drums position in the winch. The tie bars, base plate, and end plates are the skeleton of all winches that provide a solid structure for the drum, motor housing, and clutch/brake housing. Remove part of that skeleton, and the other 3 components will not be able to maintain their position in relation to each other under a load. I would also highly recommend against shaving a tie bar for clearance sake, because it's full designed profile is essential to maintaining its pulling capacity. I'd sooner shave the grill.

You might consider adding spacer plates between the bumper and the frame horns to shift the bumper and winch forward. If memory serves, DV8 has a spacer kit. Another member used them for the same exact issue not too long ago.

 

[aldo98229]

Are you planning to use the winch, or is it going to be mostly decor?

When you pull, the winch, the line, the winch plate and the front part of the frame go under tremendous stress.

I wouldn't remove anything with the words “brace” or “structural” on it if I were planning to use that winch.

 

[Zandcwhite]

I'm no engineer, but anyone who thinks those thin cast aluminum tie bars are under any kind of real load is kidding themselves. I don't see a way of shaving it that won't look goofy given the design, but I'd do that before shaving the grill. Is there enough clearance in front of the winch to just drill the mounting holes further forward?

 

[Sparty]

I'm no engineer, but anyone who thinks those thin cast aluminum tie bars are under any kind of real load is kidding themselves. I don't see a way of shaving it that won't look goofy given the design, but I'd do that before shaving the grill. Is there enough clearance in front of the winch to just drill the mounting holes further forward?

You're right....you're no engineer

Is the design perfect? Most likely not. Do those bars provide support in a structural manner? - absolutely. The torque and other forces that are seen on that entire setup would cause problems if those braces are moved.

 

[Apexcars]

I’m no structural engineer either but common sense says that if you remove that bar you onlt have support against warping or twisting around the bottom half or less of the winch, no way that would be a good idea if you ever intend to put it under load. I’m pretty sure it would void your warranty also.

 

[Zandcwhite]

You're right....you're no engineer

Is the design perfect? Most likely not. Do those bars provide support in a structural manner? - absolutely. The torque and other forces that are seen on that entire setup would cause problems if those braces are moved.

I wonder how every tugger, a Warn 8274, and a multitude of other winches function without cross bars? They definitely don't see any torque, unless your winch mounting feet are somehow rotating?

 

[Sparty]

I wonder how every tugger, a Warn 8274, and a multitude of other winches function without cross bars? They definitely don't see any torque, unless your winch mounting feet are somehow rotating?

You're point about the Warn is correct, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

1) I would never buy anything Smittybilt - especially a winch
2) They've added that bar in there to compensate for something that they don't have compared to Warn (Design-wise, material-wise)
3) Most likely through product development, they found that they had to add that in order to prevent the winch casing from failing, or the whole thing twisting.

 

[Zandcwhite]

You're point about the Warn is correct, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

1) I would never buy anything Smittybilt - especially a winch
2) They've added that bar in there to compensate for something that they don't have compared to Warn (Design-wise, material-wise)
3) Most likely through product development, they found that they had to add that in order to prevent the winch casing from failing, or the whole thing twisting.

Or it's just there as a place to mount the controls and it's purely decorative? Especially on that winch in particular, it's cast aluminum and they added that large cut out in the middle of it.

 

[Jeep4Win]

Can you? Yes… Should you? Absolutely not.

 

[Shibadog]

Are you planning to use the winch, or is it going to be mostly decor?

When you pull, the winch, the line, the winch plate and the front part of the frame go under tremendous stress.

I wouldn't remove anything with the words “brace” or “structural” on it if I were planning to use that winch.

Yup-that covers it

 

[Headbarcode]

I'm no engineer, but anyone who thinks those thin cast aluminum tie bars are under any kind of real load is kidding themselves. I don't see a way of shaving it that won't look goofy given the design, but I'd do that before shaving the grill. Is there enough clearance in front of the winch to just drill the mounting holes further forward?

They are under a compression load, to be more specific. And they are a lot stronger than they look. For an overall lightweight and low profile package, a skeletal shell around the drum is the way to go. Since the motor is on one end of the drum and the brake is on the other, the load is transfered back and forth on both ends when pulling and holding. Add to that, the strength of this type of winch layout fully relies on the sum of all its intact and assembled parts.

If weight and spacial restraints are of no concern, the 8274 is a great option. It's drum is stronger in itself, compared to those in the Zeon and VR's, and size and strength was not spared in both the gear reduction case and the "dummy" end. Since the pull and hold forces are contained on one end, the opposite end only has to prevent the winch from twisting forward on the winch mounting plate while adding support against the leverage forces trying to rip the drum out of the gear case.

It really is apples and oranges when comparing these 2 very different layouts.

Slotting the mounting holes will weaken the mounting plate, but more so the connection between the base of the winch and the plate. This is due to the loss of clamping real estate under the mounting bolt washers. A slotted hole will leave about 25% of the washer doing nothing more than bridging an air gap vs a round hole that allows that same washer to clamp down 100% on steel. The other 75ish% of the washer over a slotted hole will have to pick up the slack of the clamping/holding duty, which will easily put it out of its safe working range.

My personal recommendation is to shift the bumper and winch forward with spacers. It's more cost efficient than rethinking the winch and/or bumper. Plus, none of us would want to have to shave our iconic grills.

 

[191185]

@Headbarcode,

Thank you for all of that very usefull information . I am in no way going to modify the tie bar based on what you said. I will probably use spacers like you suggest or something else.

I do however have a question; Couldn't I just use washers that are 25-50% larger, to get the clamping power back? but now that I think about it more, my winch came with split lock washers only, are those really intended to have "clamping power" ? if so, if I aadded a regular "flat washer" wouldn't that add a ton of clamping power ?

Am I / we overthinking this? Can I slot the winch plate holes a small amount, add some flat washers and call it good? If still recomended not to, I have no problem buying those DV8 spacers mentioned earlier, however what about the two bolts on the side of the frame that I am also using to hole the bumper onto the frame.. .Can I slot those, or are there spacers / adaptors for those as well ?[/QUOTE]

 

[hoag4147]

Plus, none of us would want to have to shave our iconic grills.

If the MY23 gill that was displayed at EJS makes it to production, I believe this is the reason, more room for winch

 

[Headbarcode]

@Headbarcode,

Thank you for all of that very usefull information . I am in no way going to modify the tie bar based on what you said. I will probably use spacers like you suggest or something else.

I do however have a question; Couldn't I just use washers that are 25-50% larger, to get the clamping power back? but now that I think about it more, my winch came with split lock washers only, are those really intended to have "clamping power" ? if so, if I aadded a regular "flat washer" wouldn't that add a ton of clamping power ?

Am I / we overthinking this? Can I slot the winch plate holes a small amount, add some flat washers and call it good? If still recomended not to, I have no problem buying those DV8 spacers mentioned earlier, however what about the two bolts on the side of the frame that I am also using to hole the bumper onto the frame.. .Can I slot those, or are there spacers / adaptors for those as well ?

[/QUOTE]
My Warn winch and mounting plate for the mopar steel bumper also came with just lock washers for the 4 mounting bolts. That's perfectly fine, because the holes in the plate are accurately located and sized just big enough to clear the bolt. The plate itself is acting like a flat washer.

A flat washer only serves 3 purposes. To account for a larger through hole in an application that calls for some wiggle room between the components being bolted together, and/or, to serve as a bearing surface to prevent the lock washer from marring the surface of the component, and/or, to prevent the head of the bolt from pulling through the hole.

I'm not sure of what exactly you're working with, as far as specific bumper, winch, and mounting plate. I also don't know how much interference you're dealing with. Assuming you have enough room between the front of the winch and bumper to shift the winch forward and it doesn't need a large shift, you might be able to get away with a mild slotting. By mild, I personally wouldn't want to remove more material than a smidge beyond doubling the original diameter of the hole. To prevent the bolts from wanting to lean into the slot and side loading the threads, solid thick grade 8 (10.9 if metric) washers and longer grade 8 (10.9) bolts to account for the washers. At least an 1/8" thick, or thicker if you can find something, as that's more important than diameter, because the main concern is maintaining even clamping force all the way around the head of the bolt. Also worth mentioning, a stack of thin washers isn't as strong as a single thick washer of half the height.

Hopefully this makes sense. I'm typing a little at a time in between loading trucks.

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