BioDiesel dispensing 76 stations in CA

[zouch]

i'm not really clear on your terminology there,...
"B6-B20" means it can be anything between 6% and 20% BioDiesel.
"straight B20" means 20% BioDiesel.
(note: so far i've only seen that "6-20%" figure on stickers that stated "contains between 6-20% fuel made from BIOMASS", which means it could be Renewable Diesel, BioDiesel, or any combination of the 2.)

even B5 already has a little more lubricity than a non-BioD blend; the higher the percentage of BioD, the higher the lubricity. the modern ULSD it the worst for lubricity, so IMO *any* percentage of BioD is better than plain #2 ULSD.

i don't have any idea what "damage to the fuel system" anyone is talking about. i ran nearly straight BioD (B99-B100) for over 100K miles in our old Mercedes without any "damage to the fuel system". i don't imagine our modern vehicles are any more susceptible.

So would B6-B20 be best of both worlds? As someone who is hesitant on straight B20...

I often read conflicting perspectives. Some say B20s added lubricity is a good thing, while others say it can do some damage to the fuel system. But then there's concern over the lack of lubricity in B5.

The tagging is also silly imo. Blue label is guaranteed Biodiesel but the orange label can be either or.

Sponsored

 

[zouch]

if what you're seeing there is truly B20, i'd consider you lucky.
we still have to read the stickers on the pumps here in the Bay Area to try to figure out what they're dispensing.. and they keep changing!

Living in the LA basin of Southern California, it seems like all I can find is B20 anymore. I only know of one station that has #2 and it’s a truck stop. It’s out of the way but I’ll have to bite the bullet.

 

[StarkJL]

i'm not really clear on your terminology there,...
"B6-B20" means it can be anything between 6% and 20% BioDiesel.
"straight B20" means 20% BioDiesel.
(note: so far i've only seen that "6-20%" figure on stickers that stated "contains between 6-20% fuel made from BIOMASS", which means it could be Renewable Diesel, BioDiesel, or any combination of the 2.)

even B5 already has a little more lubricity than a non-BioD blend; the higher the percentage of BioD, the higher the lubricity. the modern ULSD it the worst for lubricity, so IMO *any* percentage of BioD is better than plain #2 ULSD.

i don't have any idea what "damage to the fuel system" anyone is talking about. i ran nearly straight BioD (B99-B100) for over 100K miles in our old Mercedes without any "damage to the fuel system". i don't imagine our modern vehicles are any more susceptible.

That's what I meant when I say B5 or B6-B20. From what I understand, at least here in California, if the pump isn't tagged with an orange or blue sticker then it is up to B5 (it isn't required to be labeled).

Blue sticker is guaranteed biodiesel, whereas orange sticker can be both as you said. I may be wrong but when I looked into this that's how I understood it.

On the fuel system, there are plenty of stories on here and on other ecodiesel vehicle forums of fuel pumps going out from biodiesel use, or even from renewable 76 fuel. Anyone can choose to believe them or not. It will cause some hesitation, however, in some people such as myself.

 

[rickinAZ]

That was probably their "biomass diesel". My Costco doesn't carry #2, only the "biomass" stuff.

We get pure #2 at my Costco. As an aside, Costco only sells biodiesel where required by law.

 

[zouch]

i'd love to see where that guideline for the color(s) of the stickers comes from; most (all?) of the stickers i remember seeing on pumps so far have been green.

if you dig deeply enough i'll bet you'll find that the CP4 pumps have been going out all over the US; to the point that there's now a Recall on them with FCA and the NHTSA. BioDiesel may be getting blamed for it by some people (people love to blame BioD for all kinds of things!), but the fact of the matter is that it's happening a lot more in the US where our regular fuel is the ULSD than it is in Europe where their regular fuel is most commonly partly BioDiesel.
Renewable Diesel is still so new that i feel the jury is out on it; but i've read some specs that make it look like it may also be lacking in Lubricity much like our ULSD. on the other hand, BioDiesel has been in use as fuel since even before the US switched to ULSD.

That's what I meant when I say B5 or B6-B20. From what I understand, at least here in California, if the pump isn't tagged with an orange or blue sticker then it is up to B5 (it isn't required to be labeled).

Blue sticker is guaranteed biodiesel, whereas orange sticker can be both as you said. I may be wrong but when I looked into this that's how I understood it.

On the fuel system, there are plenty of stories on here and on other ecodiesel vehicle forums of fuel pumps going out from biodiesel use, or even from renewable 76 fuel. Anyone can choose to believe them or not. It will cause some hesitation, however, in some people such as myself.

 

[StarkJL]

i'd love to see where that guideline for the color(s) of the stickers comes from; most (all?) of the stickers i remember seeing on pumps so far have been green.

if you dig deeply enough i'll bet you'll find that the CP4 pumps have been going out all over the US; to the point that there's now a Recall on them with FCA and the NHTSA. BioDiesel may be getting blamed for it by some people (people love to blame BioD for all kinds of things!), but the fact of the matter is that it's happening a lot more in the US where our regular fuel is the ULSD than it is in Europe where their regular fuel is most commonly partly BioDiesel.
Renewable Diesel is still so new that i feel the jury is out on it; but i've read some specs that make it look like it may also be lacking in Lubricity much like our ULSD. on the other hand, BioDiesel has been in use as fuel since even before the US switched to ULSD.

You're probably right, but the safest route imo(from what I've read) seems to be B5 (no label), R99, and then B6-B20. These fuels do have additives for any lack of lubricity to meet the spec. There are some Chevron gas stations in my area that dispense B20 and have a big warning to double check your owners manual It does cause hesitation even if the owners says it's fine so as long as you change your oil and filter sooner. To each their own.

Here's my source on the tagging:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-16/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-306#306.12

 

[zouch]

cool spec; thanks for sharing the source!

i'll have to look through it when i have more time and pore through the various "Should"s and "Shall"s to see what's actually a requirement.
(don't you love the specificity of "5 percent and 20 percent" ?! )

looking at the pumps i've visited recently i've kept an eye towards this; i've yet to see a Blue or Orange sticker; they've all been green. (to add to the confusion i found some FTC rulings from 2016 that insisted on Orange stickers for Ethanol,...)

looks like this is 18 years old, but probably still current at the Fed level. another one of those well-intended guidelines for which there's been no enforcement, maybe?

You're probably right, but the safest route imo(from what I've read) seems to be B5 (no label), R99, and then B6-B20. These fuels do have additives for any lack of lubricity to meet the spec. There are some Chevron gas stations in my area that dispense B20 and have a big warning to double check your owners manual It does cause hesitation even if the owners says it's fine so as long as you change your oil and filter sooner. To each their own.

Here's my source on the tagging:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-16/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-306#306.12

 

[HazmatJL]

I would recommend to stay away from BioDiesel as well, I would use the 76 by my house to fill up and also ended up with a failing diesel fuel system, can't say for sure if it's relatable, but since then I've only used Diesel #2 and no issues.

 

[DaltonGang]

What is the lubricity of Bio-Diesel vs Dino-Diesel??

 

[GSLSE21B]

Methanol and sodium hydroxide used to process the biodiesel can’t be helpful to the metals and rubber seals in the fuel system

 

[ChuckQue]

I’m going to bump this thread because I’ve been noticing more and more stations converting their diesel #2 pumps over to “Renewable Diesel”. They are typically B5-B20 blends, but 76 is the R99. It’s getting increasingly difficult to find regular #2, and I’ve had to run a couple tanks of B20 when out on the road and unable to find regular diesel. I think I’m going to keep my oil change intervals to lower mileage.

Has anyone else been using the R99 stuff with success? The 1500 forums seem to be full of people who do and they haven’t reported failures that seem to be anything outside of the CP4 failure.

Part of the problem I’m finding is the articles that are explaining the differences between biodiesel and renewable are written by the companies who make it. Obviously they are going to tout the benefits while claiming it’s totally fine for all modern applications. I’m hoping to find independent research that shows the R99 is safe to use and doesn’t gel or sludge the way biodiesel can.

https://www.opisnet.com/glossary-term/renewable-diesel-r99/

https://carsonteam.com/carsontalk/renewable-vs-biodiesel/

https://www.76.com/renewable-diesel

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337953124_R99_Renewable_Fuel_in_Emergency_Diesel_Generators

The forums for the 1500, here, and the JT forums contain a huge mishmash of people who are saying it’s bad to use the R99 (but also appear to not know it’s different than B20), those that use R99 regularly with no issues, and those that claim their vehicle exploded and killed their grandma because they just LOOKED at an R99 pump. Sifting through it I’ve come to the opinion that the failures that were blamed on R99 or B20 seemed to have gelling issues OR they were the typical CP4 eating itself failure which I seriously doubt is the fault of the R99 unless it has no lubricity similar to ULSD. In that case it’s less an R99 fault and more of a similar to ULSD lubricity issue which can be mitigated using additives like EDT.

Does R99 build up in oil on the ecodiesels the way B20 does, which is the main reason for the more frequent oil changes?

I think after my remaining 2 Jeep wave oil changes are up I’m going to try using the R99 for 5,000 miles and then have a UOA done to see how much fuel contamination there is. Thoughts?

 

[ChuckQue]

The bottom link I posted above is an interesting read. Portland General Electric did a series of tests using emergency generators using R99 and R20, with ULSD as a control.

“Renewable Hydrocarbon Fuel (R99) was selected to perform functional testing in one of two identical Cummins 1000KW emergency diesel generators at PGE’s Carver Readiness Center.
One generator continued to run standard ultra-low sulfur diesel (ULSD) while the other generator began using Renewable Hydrocarbon Diesel. Additionally, two other generators at Portland Service Center and Avery both used an R20 blend which consists of 20% Renewable Hydrocarbon (R99) and %80 Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD).
The main trial extended one year from August 1, 2018 – July 30, 2019. The generators ran in parallel with the grid for one hour at 90% of nameplate load each week.
The trial verified:
1) The use of the fuel provided lower emissions and lowered the total lifecycle carbon intensity over ULSD.
2) Use of the fuel does not have a negative mechanical impact on the generator.
3) The fuel has long term storage stability with no effect from ambient conditions.
4) The supply and price of R99 remained stable.“


They had the engines inspected by a Cummins tech after as well as the filters and found no issues. (Page 10 under “Effect on mechanical equipment”)

An R99 fuel sample was also sent in to Cummins for analysis and Cummins responded by saying essentially that they found it to meet spec, though the fuel density was slightly lower than ULSD which may result in less efficiency and power output. They then threw in the disclaimer that R99 is essentially an “aftermarket product” that doesn’t possess the Caterpillar label and thus isn’t approved. However, the company that provided the generators (Clark PUD) argued that R99 doesn’t void the warranty to any of the generators they owned, citing the Magnsom-moss warranty act for obvious reasons. (Page 11 “Warranty Considerations”)

Pages 13 and 14 go over “Other mechanical findings” where they interviewed other R99 users for generator applications. The City of Portland’s generator O-rings started failing after switching to R99, HOWEVER those generators had been running on B20 for the past 20 years and the belief was the switch to the R99 may have resulted in the scrubbing of particulates causing the 20 year old o-rings to finally fail. They stated it was likely less of an R99 issue and more of a B20 issue. They did, however, state the R99 has a lower lubricity than B20.

My takeaway is use Hot Shots EDT or other lubricity additive with R99.

Another interesting part of the research paper:

 

[ChuckQue]

I realize that research paper focuses on the use of R99 in generators that do not have DPF systems, but an interesting benefit to the R99 is it has a much lower soot contamination which should result in less regens. I’d venture to guess that would make the DPF less likely to become clogged up over time. They also note the excellent cold weather performance of R99 compared to B20, as well as the lack of microbial growth, wax buildup and fuel separation. Considering diesel #2 is allowed to have up to 5% biodiesel in it without having to be labeled, I am wondering if using R99 over #2 would be advantageous in our 3.0’s considering all of these things.

 

[Wrangler man]

I’m going to bump this thread because I’ve been noticing more and more stations converting their diesel #2 pumps over to “Renewable Diesel”. They are typically B5-B20 blends, but 76 is the R99. It’s getting increasingly difficult to find regular #2, and I’ve had to run a couple tanks of B20 when out on the road and unable to find regular diesel. I think I’m going to keep my oil change intervals to lower mileage.

Has anyone else been using the R99 stuff with success? The 1500 forums seem to be full of people who do and they haven’t reported failures that seem to be anything outside of the CP4 failure.

Part of the problem I’m finding is the articles that are explaining the differences between biodiesel and renewable are written by the companies who make it. Obviously they are going to tout the benefits while claiming it’s totally fine for all modern applications. I’m hoping to find independent research that shows the R99 is safe to use and doesn’t gel or sludge the way biodiesel can.

https://www.opisnet.com/glossary-term/renewable-diesel-r99/

https://carsonteam.com/carsontalk/renewable-vs-biodiesel/

https://www.76.com/renewable-diesel

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337953124_R99_Renewable_Fuel_in_Emergency_Diesel_Generators

The forums for the 1500, here, and the JT forums contain a huge mishmash of people who are saying it’s bad to use the R99 (but also appear to not know it’s different than B20), those that use R99 regularly with no issues, and those that claim their vehicle exploded and killed their grandma because they just LOOKED at an R99 pump. Sifting through it I’ve come to the opinion that the failures that were blamed on R99 or B20 seemed to have gelling issues OR they were the typical CP4 eating itself failure which I seriously doubt is the fault of the R99 unless it has no lubricity similar to ULSD. In that case it’s less an R99 fault and more of a similar to ULSD lubricity issue which can be mitigated using additives like EDT.

Does R99 build up in oil on the ecodiesels the way B20 does, which is the main reason for the more frequent oil changes?

I think after my remaining 2 Jeep wave oil changes are up I’m going to try using the R99 for 5,000 miles and then have a UOA done to see how much fuel contamination there is. Thoughts?

I too ran into a few situations where the only diesel I could find was the B20. Because I was not towing or putting my Jeep under heavy loads I did not notice any noticeable difference. Other than when I changed my fuel filter out at the 15,000 mile mark. The residual fuel and filter appeared a bit more discolored. IMO and mentioned in our EcoDiesel owners manual, it is recommended to change out your fuel filter more frequently when using the alternative fuels. IMO more than your early oil change. As for the oil changes I always do an oil change NO MORE than 5,000. If I was leasing the EcoDiesel and didn't plan on purchasing it afterwards I would just follow the manual recommendations. But for me I'm in for the "Long Haul" and will never go over a 5000 mile oil change and using alternative fuels will never go over 10,000 miles on a fuel filter. When using #2 diesel my fuel filter changes are every 15,000. Just an added tip stick with the OEM air filter and change it out frequently. Especially when wheeling or operating your EcoDiesel in unfavorable air conditions with high particulates in the air. (such as my home base) Added tip...an alternative to the Extremely overpriced/ hard to find cabin air filter(s) (yes 2) (2 piece) for the EcoDiesel Wangler can be replaced by using a non diesel Wrangler cabin air filter. (Will not have the charcoal carbon material in the element) IMO who cares

 

[JL Diesel]

Thanks for bringing this up and I hope some people can weigh in. I’m also having more issues finding #2 over B-20 except at the bargain gas stations but I don’t really trust the quality of their diesel. Recently I followed my father in law to a 76 station and it was the first time I had seen the R99. He said he’s been using it in his Chevy 2500 that is an ‘18 or ‘19 and said he hasn’t noticed any differences. I opted to not fill up but couldn’t find much info on if the R99 was ‘safe’ for our Jeeps.

Sponsored