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west tex

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This is a very strange economy indeed. Some parts are in recession and some are going strong. It feels as if it's on a slippery slope, or the back side of a bell curve now. I doubt we've seen the worst.

It's like nothing I've ever seen in my 71 years.

But it's also the BEST "bad economy" I've seen. Leaves me wondering where it goes from here.
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roaniecowpony

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What blue Kool-Aid are you drinking? The Bronco has increased in price like a half a dozen times this year alone. The Braptor just increased 4 more digits last week I think. Hasn't the Lightning increased by like $10-15k? Both Stellantis and Ford have terrible quality control.

The simple fact is ALL vehicles are getting too expensive. So is everything else. I just got a new covered deck installed....60 large. Didn't that buy a house for the old timers back in the day? MSN could write the same article on every manufacturer.
Another point about Ford is that they posted a $2.1 BILLION loss for last year. So, even with the price hikes, they're sinking like a wise guy with cement boots.
 

graytag

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/com...4b3c2d6d1e768cd&ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&ei=8

I must say, the amount of new owners posting here has dwindled. Also, the amount of brand new heavily modified Jeeps have dwindled.

Part of this is the strange economy we are in right now. The other part I can fix for Jeep real easy. If only someone there would read this forum once in awhile

1. Quality control. The little things become big headaches for owners, especially when getting things fixed under warranty is so difficult. Want to reduce warranty costs? Build a better vehicle. That simple

2. MSRP. Not just Jeep, but every manufacturer read the winds wrong 2 years ago. People were standing in line and handing dealers money, many over MSRP, for anything that would show up on the lot. Most manufacturers were hit on both sides from increases in supplies and passing it on, to just not taking time to understand why so many were paying so much. So, they just keep raising prices and took that dealer "market adjustment" away. Well, the buying public adjusted all right, to thinking that the 5 year old vehicle in the driveway doesn't look so bad now. Lower the prices.

Jeep could also cut costs, passing that to the consumer with reduced prices, by reducing complexity. The ESS, two battery system is a pain in the ass and has caused customers to become disgruntled and dealer service departs to be constantly dealing with battery warranties. In 2023! I though battery tech was entering a new age.

Ford just announced that they are significantly reducing the complexity of the F150 and cutting the MSPR thousands, as easily as 2024 models. Following a major refresh that can only mean that they are de-contenting, perhaps getting rid of one or more of the luxury models.

I'm really surprised that Jeep added more complexity in the 2024s, giant screens on all models, more and more sub models with more stuff. Hell, that dam grille is significant;y more complicated than the traditional one it replaces.

Complexity leads to less reliability. People are tired of things breaking and going in for warranty and recalls. Granted, much of what breaks is "tech", what we used to call electronic gadgetry. Fords Sync3 has been a disaster. Their 10 Speed automatic, co developed with GM, has also been problematic. Looks like Ford came to their senses. Let's hope Jeep follows.

The entire economy isn't in the sewer yet. Businesses are still hiring. Home Depot has been crazy busy the last few months, houses are still being built around here, and there are new highways being built (no tolls here in San Antonio/Bexar County!).

I'd say that the biggest problems with sales numbers right now, as far as we the buyer are concerned, are steeply rising MSRPs combined with interest rates that are no longer at record lows. One thing Jeep can somewhat control, the other they can't. The decision is simple if you are sitting in their C suite.
Your review was 1000X more informative and well-thought out than the article.....which reads like it was written with ChatGPT. As a guy who owned "old school" TJs, I'm leasing until things stabilize- both mechanically and MSRP-wise.
 

RubiSc0tt

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Related article I posted earlier this month, which supports the same premise by MSN:

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...-went-from-rock-crawler-to-luxury-suv.112980/

Bottom line, is that Stellantis is targeting more "affluent" customers in an attempt to become a "luxury brand," which makes Wrangler ownership unattainable for many Americans. As a long-time CJ and Wrangler owner, it's tough to accept.
I saw that and read it. Honestly, this isn’t just Stellantis; Rather, Stellantis was able to achieve what others could not: a “Luxury Wrangler”.
They’ve been trending this way since the JK dropped. I still remember, my friend group, we were surprised when we saw JK’s with heated leather seats. That’s why the shift started happening. Prior to that, if you wanted a Jeep- you bought a TJ. If you wanted a luxury 4WD vehicle- you bought a Grand Cherokee. And those segments rarely crossed unless you already had one and just wanted the other.
But to be honest: it’s a smart move. Why let all the luxury brands take that highly profitable market share, when they aren’t as capable? At least Wrangler can back up it’s claims (when used right and in the hands of a capable driver).
Where Jeep is fucking up, is the floor pricing: they keep raising the floor on all models. Similar to pick up truck makers- You can’t get a 4WD half ton truck for under $30k now. But you can get one with all the chrome shit like it’s a downsized Semi and heated/ AC/ Vibrating massage seats. That’s great, but what about the actual function of a pick up truck? Jeep has the same problem, but with less ridiculous options, in my opinion.
If Jeep wants to sell, they’re going to have to drop price and add value, especially with Bronco, and the new Tacoma coming to market now. We can argue and nitpick the differences all day here but most people will cross shop them all as “4x4’s” and decide on their own criteria. And I’m not just saying make the base model Wrangler cheaper- they need to drop prices across the board, and make it easier to get into a Willy’s, or a Rubicon, etc. and not by offering creative financing plans either; drop the base price of all the models. This is how you get people Interested and excited.
Will we see it happen, though? I doubt it. Not unless the other options that get cross shopped by normal people start stealing the market via pricing.
 

roaniecowpony

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Just a reference point for the Jeep prices, a friend is buying a GM work truck, 8ft bed, regular cab, 2500, 4wd. It costs $50k
 

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Another point about Ford is that they posted a $2.1 BILLION loss for last year. So, even with the price hikes, they're sinking like a wise guy with cement boots.
I haven't looked at their financials, but is this due to their investment in EV's? I don't recall how they're accounting for this.
 

AZ Hella

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Only two things in the article that I disagree with.
  1. Stating that the Grand Cherokee is inappropriate.
  2. The Wrangler's best days are behind it.
 

Old Jeeper

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MSN clickbait…. An EV promoting idiot that never owned a Jeep wrote that article. How do I know? Here is a clip from the next article right below it:

“The death wobble on certain Jeeps could stem from defective track bars, ball joints, spark plugs, tire pressure sensors, wheel bearings, steering box, and so on.” :LOL:

I worked as an electrical engineer in the media business for over 30 years. I never met a journalist that understood mechanics, electronics, or science to any competent level. They are English majors. By the same token, the majority of engineers suck at writing.
WELL, I will know that Spark Plugs are the number ONE cause of Death Wobble, heck everyone knows that. Ohhh it was not so bad when Jeeps were 4 cyl, then YJ/TJ and its 6 Cyl only made DW worse and adn 8 Cyl...what next a 10 cyl.
 

258_T18A

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But to be honest: it’s a smart move. Why let all the luxury brands take that highly profitable market share, when they aren’t as capable? At least Wrangler can back up it’s claims (when used right and in the hands of a capable driver).
What?

People shopping for luxury SUVs (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Volvo, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti) don't give a rat's ass about off road capability. They only want 4WD/AWD for the snow. These vehicles are never going to be taken off road. And let's be real, 90% of Wranglers never go off road. The 10% that do, 99% of the time it's easy trails that any 4WD vehicle can handle, it's not rock crawling, mudding, or high speed baja runs. I've owned Jeeps for 30 years - CJ, YI, TJ, JKU, this notion of a Wrangler as a luxury SUV is like maybe 5 years old at most and while maybe it appeals to some Jeep folks that are getting older, the vast majority of the luxury SUV target market is not cross shopping Wranglers. Even people looking at Tahoes and Expeditions aren't cross shopping Wranglers. Stellantis is way wide of the mark here.
 

clayps

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This is anecdotal, but I got a good laugh. I was picking up my Jeep from the local shop yesterday after some service and no word of a lie, everyone vehicle on a lift was a Stellantis product. Jeep Compass, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Ram Truck and a Dodge Journey. I can’t speak to why they were there except that I heard them talking about the RAM being quoted for 8k in work from the dealer. As others have said, people are willing to put up with lower perceived reliability for savings up front. But at the current price of almost any Jeep vehicle, there’s 4-5 competitors that are more reliable, perform equal or better, and cost the same or less.
 

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aldo98229

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/com...4b3c2d6d1e768cd&ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&ei=8

I must say, the amount of new owners posting here has dwindled. Also, the amount of brand new heavily modified Jeeps have dwindled.

Part of this is the strange economy we are in right now. The other part I can fix for Jeep real easy. If only someone there would read this forum once in awhile

1. Quality control. The little things become big headaches for owners, especially when getting things fixed under warranty is so difficult. Want to reduce warranty costs? Build a better vehicle. That simple

2. MSRP. Not just Jeep, but every manufacturer read the winds wrong 2 years ago. People were standing in line and handing dealers money, many over MSRP, for anything that would show up on the lot. Most manufacturers were hit on both sides from increases in supplies and passing it on, to just not taking time to understand why so many were paying so much. So, they just keep raising prices and took that dealer "market adjustment" away. Well, the buying public adjusted all right, to thinking that the 5 year old vehicle in the driveway doesn't look so bad now. Lower the prices.

Jeep could also cut costs, passing that to the consumer with reduced prices, by reducing complexity. The ESS, two battery system is a pain in the ass and has caused customers to become disgruntled and dealer service departs to be constantly dealing with battery warranties. In 2023! I though battery tech was entering a new age.

Ford just announced that they are significantly reducing the complexity of the F150 and cutting the MSPR thousands, as easily as 2024 models. Following a major refresh that can only mean that they are de-contenting, perhaps getting rid of one or more of the luxury models.

I'm really surprised that Jeep added more complexity in the 2024s, giant screens on all models, more and more sub models with more stuff. Hell, that dam grille is significant;y more complicated than the traditional one it replaces.

Complexity leads to less reliability. People are tired of things breaking and going in for warranty and recalls. Granted, much of what breaks is "tech", what we used to call electronic gadgetry. Fords Sync3 has been a disaster. Their 10 Speed automatic, co developed with GM, has also been problematic. Looks like Ford came to their senses. Let's hope Jeep follows.

The entire economy isn't in the sewer yet. Businesses are still hiring. Home Depot has been crazy busy the last few months, houses are still being built around here, and there are new highways being built (no tolls here in San Antonio/Bexar County!).

I'd say that the biggest problems with sales numbers right now, as far as we the buyer are concerned, are steeply rising MSRPs combined with interest rates that are no longer at record lows. One thing Jeep can somewhat control, the other they can't. The decision is simple if you are sitting in their C suite.
I totally agree.

I’d add two more things:
  1. “Complexity” also comes from offering 14 different trim levels, six engines, five transfer cases, eight different axles, five different sets of fenders, ten different seat covering configurations, etc., etc. New members routinely come on here completely overwhelmed with the Jeep.com page. If they are overwhelmed then the page is not doing its job. But even seasoned Jeepers are unaware that, for instance, Sahara and High Altitude don’t share fenders, or that you don’t get the rear fold down armrest when you order the Mopar leather seats. If people “in the know” don’t know, then that’s real confusion. All of this unnecessary proliferation adds cost and complexity for everyone: manufacturing, dealers and customers.
  2. Crummy dealers add to the difficulty of getting simple things fixed under warranty. It doesn’t matter if it is out of greed or incompetence, the result is the exact same for the customer.
I’ve owned Jeeps for 25 years and Chrysler products for 35 years. But between ridiculous prices, inconsistent quality and crummy dealers, I am finding it difficult to give them one more cent out of my pocket.
 

Old Jeeper

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/com...4b3c2d6d1e768cd&ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&ei=8

I must say, the amount of new owners posting here has dwindled. Also, the amount of brand new heavily modified Jeeps have dwindled.

Part of this is the strange economy we are in right now. The other part I can fix for Jeep real easy. If only someone there would read this forum once in awhile

1. Quality control. The little things become big headaches for owners, especially when getting things fixed under warranty is so difficult. Want to reduce warranty costs? Build a better vehicle. That simple

2. MSRP. Not just Jeep, but every manufacturer read the winds wrong 2 years ago. People were standing in line and handing dealers money, many over MSRP, for anything that would show up on the lot. Most manufacturers were hit on both sides from increases in supplies and passing it on, to just not taking time to understand why so many were paying so much. So, they just keep raising prices and took that dealer "market adjustment" away. Well, the buying public adjusted all right, to thinking that the 5 year old vehicle in the driveway doesn't look so bad now. Lower the prices.

Jeep could also cut costs, passing that to the consumer with reduced prices, by reducing complexity. The ESS, two battery system is a pain in the ass and has caused customers to become disgruntled and dealer service departs to be constantly dealing with battery warranties. In 2023! I though battery tech was entering a new age.

Ford just announced that they are significantly reducing the complexity of the F150 and cutting the MSPR thousands, as easily as 2024 models. Following a major refresh that can only mean that they are de-contenting, perhaps getting rid of one or more of the luxury models.

I'm really surprised that Jeep added more complexity in the 2024s, giant screens on all models, more and more sub models with more stuff. Hell, that dam grille is significant;y more complicated than the traditional one it replaces.

Complexity leads to less reliability. People are tired of things breaking and going in for warranty and recalls. Granted, much of what breaks is "tech", what we used to call electronic gadgetry. Fords Sync3 has been a disaster. Their 10 Speed automatic, co developed with GM, has also been problematic. Looks like Ford came to their senses. Let's hope Jeep follows.

The entire economy isn't in the sewer yet. Businesses are still hiring. Home Depot has been crazy busy the last few months, houses are still being built around here, and there are new highways being built (no tolls here in San Antonio/Bexar County!).

I'd say that the biggest problems with sales numbers right now, as far as we the buyer are concerned, are steeply rising MSRPs combined with interest rates that are no longer at record lows. One thing Jeep can somewhat control, the other they can't. The decision is simple if you are sitting in their C suite.
Good points in your write.

My loaded to the max '03 RUBICON (sans the auto trains) both tops, full hard doors maxed. $21,xxx vs my just ordered 2024 and MSRP $65,515 Max out sans the convertible top, which is going to cost me $1800 to buy across the counter at Jeep (WIFE wants a convertible, but the JLR-X does not come in a convertible). So the Jeep over 20 years has tripled in price!

That said my 2024 if full of more doo-dah that you can imagine Vs my '03 TJR that had AC, heat, Std Trans and NO 12 In screen, no electric windows or much else electric which is why the TJ is the Last real Jeep..

Some things are better on the JLR: Axles, the 8 speed trans if good but if you want GREAT then the Ford Superduty 10 Spd is the best trans in any I have ever owned. NOTE: This is NOT the 10 sp developed by Ford & GM, this is the FORD 10 sp!

I still think a JLR-B (BUILDER) in 2/4 door with limited options XR package, AC, Cruise Control, Stick or Auto, Hard or Soft top, Dual Batteries, 4:56 or 4:88 gears. Electrical package that offers 12/110 on the dash and at the rear of the Jeep.
 

roaniecowpony

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I haven't looked at their financials, but is this due to their investment in EV's? I don't recall how they're accounting for this.
Big time. Just like all the other makers. It seems there are also a number of new name makers of EVs that are backsliding pretty bad even with subsidies.
 

aldo98229

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ESS is a favorite to pick on here.

But the reality is that ESS works perfectly when you have good batteries.

Ninety percent of ESS issues come from (1) cheap OE batteries, and (2) incompetent dealers who can’t diagnose and fix the problem.
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