Are us middle class Jeepers going to be (fuel) forcefully priced out of enjoying our Jeeps? [CLOSED DUE TO POLITICS]

Status
Not open for further replies.

INCRHULK

Well-Known Member
First Name
Lance
Joined
Jul 23, 2019
Threads
30
Messages
798
Reaction score
898
Location
Canada
Website
litwphoto.com
Vehicle(s)
2019 Wrangler Unlimited Sahara
Build Thread
Link
Occupation
Program Manager, Information Technology
Wonder if that factors in lithium and cobalt mining and refining. Those are a big part of the carbon footprint of Li-ion batteries. Very few places to get these things so they have to be strip mined in one location, shipped to another location for processing and then shipped elsewhere for forming into batteries. It's a lot more to think about than just the charging side of the equation. BEV/PHEV certainly have a future in the auto world and with Jeeps, but IMO, Li-ion ain't gonna be long lived due to a lot of issues, and all the strip mining and refining required make them less green than you think.
Yes, the lifecycle reports I've mentioned factor those inputs in. A lot of O&G lifecycle estimates don't.

The thing is, with BEV vehicles as you run them, they don't add to the carbon output. ICE vehicles do, constantly for the entire life of the vehicle. Mining, refining, and production are one-time input costs. Construction is a one-time input cost, but one that is shared between ICE and BEV.

Shift generation off fossil fuel production, and the carbon input to the environment trends towards zero. It won't entirely be zero because of wear and tear items, such as brakes, tires, and coolant. We are just talking about carbon emissions, It doesn't even take into count the reduced particulate and carcinogenic pollutants emitted by ICE.

The battery packs can be up/down cycled when they no longer hold enough charge for meaningful locomotive power, and the chemistry and elements can be recycled to produce new packs when completely spent.

When the pack is no longer good for locomotive power, the chances are the new pack will be cheaper, and provide greater power density for a given volume or mass.

BEV is a revolution and evolution in personal transportation we haven't seen since the introduction of the automobile, and the changes will be seismic and required.

 

NULL POINTER

Well-Known Member
First Name
Carmine
Joined
Feb 21, 2022
Threads
4
Messages
140
Reaction score
254
Location
Free state of Florida, NW of JAX
Vehicle(s)
2018 JLUR 6spd '19 VetteZ06 7spdVert, '14 F150 4X4
Occupation
Old Fart
I have a few friends from college that currently reside in the "cocoon of snobs", in the CA Bay Area.
The general mindset (not branding everyone in the same basket) of the folks there seem to think they are way better than the rest of us in the country, especially when it comes to tech and advancements.

Most of these people own Teslas. One of these acquantainces mocked me like I was a 3rd world hick for driving a gas Jeep. "I mean, are you still in 1982?" was his exact comment.

Said dude goes to Joshua tree national park in the Tesla that looks half SUV-half sedan. Shit happens with his electrified drivetrain and he is stranded for several hours.

I don't like getting into silly games, but I had to do this one for myself and all the Jeepers so I told him. "Man, I can get into a lot of shit too.......... Just that I can engage 4-Lo and get out of it, come home, have a pizza and beer and go to bed" :)
I get a chuckle seeing all those "better than thou" people driving their Teslas and crying while they go running to their safe spaces because Elon Musk wants to buy Twitter. "cocoon of snobs", I like that one. Reminds me of a speech once given referencing "an effete corps of impudent snobs"

Now back to being priced out of my Jeep by fuel prices. No Way. I will keep it, drive it because I like to, and make sacrifices in other areas such as dining out. My Corvette takes high octane premium, so between the price for that, and the love bugs, it stays in the garage for now.
 

Remorseless

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 10, 2022
Threads
1
Messages
156
Reaction score
249
Location
NC
Vehicle(s)
'22 JLR 2.0T, '21 KL TH 3.2, '19 Charger R/T
Build Thread
Link
Yes, the lifecycle reports I've mentioned factor those inputs in. A lot of O&G lifecycle estimates don't.

The thing is, with BEV vehicles as you run them, they don't add to the carbon output. ICE vehicles do, constantly for the entire life of the vehicle. Mining, refining, and production are one-time input costs. Construction is a one-time input cost, but one that is shared between ICE and BEV.

Shift generation off fossil fuel production, and the carbon input to the environment trends towards zero. It won't entirely be zero because of wear and tear items, such as brakes, tires, and coolant. We are just talking about carbon emissions, It doesn't even take into count the reduced particulate and carcinogenic pollutants emitted by ICE.

The battery packs can be up/down cycled when they no longer hold enough charge for meaningful locomotive power, and the chemistry and elements can be recycled to produce new packs when completely spent.

When the pack is no longer good for locomotive power, the chances are the new pack will be cheaper, and provide greater power density for a given volume or mass.

BEV is a revolution and evolution in personal transportation we haven't seen since the introduction of the automobile, and the changes will be seismic and required.
IMO that's a bit "pie in the sky" on the recyclability of EV batteries. To my knowledge, current Li-ion battery tech used in cars isn't as recyclable as it should be. And let's also not forget that mining and refining is an ongoing cost due to the need to replace batteries as they either wear out or are damaged. You'll be swapping in a new battery pack or new pack internals at a certain point, and only a portion will be able to be recycled. The method that they use to recycle EV batteries is basically to burn it off into a plastic/metal slag or dunking it into vats of acid. Either way, you're working with a lot of toxic stuff that needs to be retired at some point, meaning finding ways to safely dispose of lots of toxic materials. So, yes, an EV doesn't output carbon during its operation on a particular battery pack, but it's only a partial picture. Devil's in the details, and there's lots of devils to go around for both ICE vehicles and EVs.
 


Vito92

Active Member
First Name
Isaiah
Joined
Jan 21, 2022
Threads
1
Messages
44
Reaction score
34
Location
Detroit
Vehicle(s)
2022 Wrangler JL 2Door Willys
i just cut back on my alcohol consumption, but prior to ordering my 2 door a few weeks ago i already decided this is my last gas powered vehicle
 

JSFoster75

Well-Known Member
First Name
Scott
Joined
Oct 6, 2019
Threads
105
Messages
1,862
Reaction score
1,781
Location
Bluff City, TN
Vehicle(s)
2019 JLUR (Mojito), 2022 JLR (Tuscadero)
Vehicle Showcase
4
I just considered renting a vehicle for a family vacation and quickly figured out that for the $1,200 cost of the rental, I could buy one heck of a lot of gas.... Even at $5.50/gallon and 18mpg, I can still buy 218 gallons of gas and travel over 3,900 miles all while driving my own vehicle. And I'd only save about 30-40% of the gas money by driving a better MPG vehicle which certainly wouldn't offset near the $1,200 cost of the rental.

Sure, I'm putting some extra mileage on my Jeep, but in the grand scheme of things I would much rather drive my own vehicle.
 

Brsox

Well-Known Member
First Name
Bill
Joined
Apr 5, 2022
Threads
10
Messages
153
Reaction score
153
Location
Rhode Island
Vehicle(s)
2019. 4Runner TRD PRO
Wonder if that factors in lithium and cobalt mining and refining. Those are a big part of the carbon footprint of Li-ion batteries. Very few places to get these things so they have to be strip mined in one location, shipped to another location for processing and then shipped elsewhere for forming into batteries. It's a lot more to think about than just the charging side of the equation. BEV/PHEV certainly have a future in the auto world and with Jeeps, but IMO, Li-ion ain't gonna be long lived due to a lot of issues, and all the strip mining and refining required make them less green than you think.
I'll try to find a link to a great explanation I watched on Ted Talks. Someday, the technology will be there but current EVs, in their current configuration with lithium ion batteries, are not helping to reduce CO2 emissions when you look at the whole picture.
 


Brsox

Well-Known Member
First Name
Bill
Joined
Apr 5, 2022
Threads
10
Messages
153
Reaction score
153
Location
Rhode Island
Vehicle(s)
2019. 4Runner TRD PRO
In an ideal world. we are at the limit of solar and wind now. The freeze here in Texas last February proved that it can not be relied upon with no conventional backup. There are so many people relocating here and so many new houses going up, that conventional power generation will continue to be more and more necessary.

And let's not forget, for the foreseeable future, BEVs only make sense for those who own a home or have some other way to have access to a charger 8-10 hours a day at off peak times. BEVs in large numbers, many charging during peak hours, will put an unsustainable demand on the power grids during the summer and winter.

Windmill cost and maintenance is mostly offset by carbon credits/tax abatements. Once those expire, we will have wind turbines sitting idle, too expensive to keep maintained. Let's not even get into the discussion of tubine blade replacements and disposal. Look it up, crazy.

At the current rate, a commercial charging station is going to have to charge about 80 cents a KWH in order to be profitable. That rate, given average mile ranges, is significantly higher than the current cost of gasoline.

I think BEVs have a place in urban/suburban use. They can not and should not replace all combustion engines. The government needs to stay out of the free market.
You're right on. With modern drilling methods, clean burning fuels and modern emissions controls, cheap abundant fossil fuels are still the way to go.
 

av8or

Well-Known Member
First Name
Randall
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Threads
27
Messages
434
Reaction score
581
Location
Oregon
Vehicle(s)
2020 JLUR, Rivian R1T preorder
Occupation
FedEx-retired
IMO that's a bit "pie in the sky" on the recyclability of EV batteries. To my knowledge, current Li-ion battery tech used in cars isn't as recyclable as it should be. And let's also not forget that mining and refining is an ongoing cost due to the need to replace batteries as they either wear out or are damaged. You'll be swapping in a new battery pack or new pack internals at a certain point, and only a portion will be able to be recycled. The method that they use to recycle EV batteries is basically to burn it off into a plastic/metal slag or dunking it into vats of acid. Either way, you're working with a lot of toxic stuff that needs to be retired at some point, meaning finding ways to safely dispose of lots of toxic materials. So, yes, an EV doesn't output carbon during its operation on a particular battery pack, but it's only a partial picture. Devil's in the details, and there's lots of devils to go around for both ICE vehicles and EVs.
These aren’t hard to find if you look.
https://electrek.co/2022/05/16/larg...s-online-enough-for-all-of-norways-batteries/
 

Brsox

Well-Known Member
First Name
Bill
Joined
Apr 5, 2022
Threads
10
Messages
153
Reaction score
153
Location
Rhode Island
Vehicle(s)
2019. 4Runner TRD PRO
My wife and I have made adjustments, but the Jeep and weekend adventures wasn't part of it.

1) Subscriptions (Disney+, Apple, Amazon Prime, Ect..): All cancelled. We watch little to no TV so even less leaves more time for family and experiences
2) Pool Service: I can do myself, so we axed that
3) Food: I cook. I shop the perimeter of the store and avoid the middle. Bonus here is we eat healthy. Very little processed foods. In comparison, produce, dairy, and meat is far cheaper and goes further than processed foods or the crap in all the isles
4) Sams Club Membership: Avoid the right and middle, buy select items in bulk
5) Eating Out: All but stopped. Not great for you, expensive, and I swear the quality of the food has dropped. Noticed last time at Canes that the chicken strips were about 1/2 the normal size


With all of that, we have shaved off hundreds of dollars. I do get 55 gallons of gas a month from my employer, so that offsets the costs. But I daily my Jeep and in no world does getting another "car" save a single nickel.
I think a lot of people are doing what you are doing. Look at the number of Netflix subscriptions. They are falling fast. Unfortunately, a lot of businesses are going to pay the price. You can't stop driving if you have to get to work and I don't want to stop taking road trips, so other expenses have to be cut. Dunkin' Donuts is losing a lot of money from me. Amazing what you can save just by cutting out those iced coffees.
 

Brsox

Well-Known Member
First Name
Bill
Joined
Apr 5, 2022
Threads
10
Messages
153
Reaction score
153
Location
Rhode Island
Vehicle(s)
2019. 4Runner TRD PRO
There are a lot of reports that point out this is an incorrect assumption. Factoring in the externals from O&G, electrical is still ahead of the game with current generation capacity (IE in the US it is largely fossil fuel generation). Add in the expanding generation via renewables and green energy (solar wind, tidal, etc.) the carbon moves to neutral and even negative the longer you own and operate a BEV.
Here's a link to short explanation of the EV question. Makes a lot of sense.
 

Remorseless

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 10, 2022
Threads
1
Messages
156
Reaction score
249
Location
NC
Vehicle(s)
'22 JLR 2.0T, '21 KL TH 3.2, '19 Charger R/T
Build Thread
Link
Aye, and like I said - they're either burning the batteries to slag, which results in producing toxic fumes and carbon emissions, or using pools of acid to break down the batteries, which creates a need to deal with pools of acid filled with toxic materials - which isn't as rosy as that article presents the situation. Pyrometallurgy and hydrometallurgy, respectively, are the terms - https://www.science.org/content/art...rs-are-coming-what-happens-all-dead-batteries .

So, they might be able to recover 95% of a certain component (if true, would love to see some outside data on that claim), but it's still a partial story. What outputs were created in the recovery of that material? ICE and EVs both are imperfect, IMO, and neither one is straight up the only answer, and neither one is going to save the world, just impact it in different ways.

 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Chrysler Factory Warranty
 
Top