anybody has suffered engine damage due to the oil overfill

[Kluk Ztopolovky]

I read of so many instances where the dealership mechanics overfill the JL pentastar with 6 quarts . If that happens and it goes unnoticed would that always damage the motor or it may not do any damage in some cases? Is there anybody out there who has experienced this painful oil scenario and noticed only much later ?

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[blnewt]

I'm assuming this seal failure was probably due to an overfill
https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/oil-leak-on-front-of-3-6.34349/page-2#post-786605

 

[Adventure.AS]

I read of so many instances where the dealership mechanics overfill the JL pentastar with 6 quarts . If that happens and it goes unnoticed would that always damage the motor or it may not do any damage in some cases? Is there anybody out there who has experienced this painful oil scenario and noticed only much later ?

We need to be careful here in Canada if we DIY oil changes. The oil is in 5 litre containers which equals 5.28344 US quarts. To put in the proper amount of oil you will need to put in only 4.73176 litres.

 

[DanW]

I'm assuming this seal failure was probably due to an overfill
https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/oil-leak-on-front-of-3-6.34349/page-2#post-786605

I believe that leak in the picture they posted was caused by bad or pinched seals or loose bolts. I could be wrong, but I've never heard of a leak like that that wasn't from a seal issue. If it was due to overfilling, it would have been way beyond 6 quarts, and not coming from main seals, but probably places oil wasn't supposed to reach, or causing a condition to blow the seals out. EIther way, I think it would take more than 6 quarts to get there. Again, I think that leak was caused by the seals not being in the correct intended condition.

The big threat from oil being over filled is the crank shaft causing aeration of the oil as it mixes it with air. You might be able to see it on the dipstick, right after shutoff, but I'm not certain of that. I'm not saying a leak can't develop, I just think the leak shown in the pics is not the symptom for overfilling, but rather a seal issue or something else. Aeration of the oil is bad because it changes the hydraulic characteristics of the oil, which can cause problems particularly in the valve train, and it can shorten the life of the oil.

As for their speculation on thin oil, I'd doubt that, too. First of all, the seals in the 3.6 are designed from the start to handle 0w20 oil. Besides that, the reality is that a 5w30 weight vs. a 0w20 weight isn't as big an actual difference as everyone thinks. First of all, at full operating temp, a 30 weight is MUCH thinner than the 0 weight at cold temp. Viscosity measurement is very hard to explain. Take 0w20, for example. the 0 means that it flows in the 0 viscosity range when cold, which is (surprisingly) measured at 104 degrees. The 20 means that it flows as a 20 at 212 degrees. If you look at the actual difference between a 20 weight and a 30, in reality, it isn't very much. The difference between a zero and a 5 at 104 degrees is even less. So everyone has this idea that 0w20 is dramatically thinner than 5w30 but in reality, the difference isn't huge. Those seals can handle 0w20. Hondas and Toyotas are now running around with 0w16 and they aren't blowing up or leaking everywhere.

By the way, any oil is actually MUCH thinner at high temperature than at low temp. You have to think of the rating as "behaves as". 0w20 isn't thicker at high temp as it is at low temp, even though the weight rating looks that way. So, a 0w20 "behaves" as a zero weight at 104 degrees, but "behaves" as a 20 weight at 212.

Another way to look at this is that even a 10w30 at 212 degrees actually runs faster (is thinner) than a 0w20 at 104 degrees, and even moreso at 50 or 60 degrees. I'll also point out that a PAO or Group IV based 10w30 might have a lower pour point than a conventional 5w30 or 5w20. (Mobil 1 EP 10w30 has a pour point at -39 C, while Valvoline conventional 5w20 has a pour point of -36 C, for example.) That gets into a whole other area of chemistry, though.

A 0w20 vs even a 10w30 doesn't make much difference to modern engine seals.

Remember this, too. There are literally tens of thousands of JL's and probably Grand Cherokees running around with this new 3.6 where dealerships have overfilled them to 6 quarts. While I wouldn't recommend it, I don't believe it is causing any or at least many serious problems. If it were, FCA would be putting out an APB with a red alert to all the dealerships, on the double, because they'd be getting a deluge of warranty claims, and that would cost them lots of money. Nothing gets their attention like bleeding money on a large scale. I'm not saying it isn't harmful in the long run, I'm just saying that it isn't causing mayhem, either. You probably have to go beyond 6 quarts to get aeration, which is again, the biggest problem that can come from it. Time will tell, though.

If you see overfilling on your dipstick, take care of it. If you see foaming or bubbles in the oil on the dipstick, then it may indicate aeration. (It might not be visible, though, especially if the engine has been sitting, allowing air to escape from the oil.) If the oil doesn't look normal, then get it checked immediately, and I wouldn't recommend running the engine. I haven't seen anyone with overfilling on this forum or any other post a pic of aerated or abnormal looking oil on the dipstick, yet, thank goodness.

I'd also recommend documenting any overfill cases from the dealership, even if only by 1/2 quart. They do have a dummy margin built into the specs, as it is common for people to overfill, at least a little. However, I doubt they thought the dummies would be their own dealerships.

 

[DanW]

One more thing...I hope all that makes sense. Viscosity and how it is measured really IS hard to understand and explain.

Bottom line: Check your oil. Even if they WAY overfilled it, as in beyond 6 quarts, it won't have the chance to cause problems if you catch it relatively quickly. NEVER get an oil change and fail to check it shortly afterward. Also, for accuracy, make sure you do it by the book, which means the engine is fully up to operating temp (has run 20 minutes or more, and not just idling) and check it 5 minutes after shutoff.

...and stop worrying about 0w20 oil being too thin. It is fine. There are engines that have run well past 200k with 5w20, which is in the same thickness range at operating temp as 0w20. Many have been Pentastars, btw.

I would check it right after a change more out of fear that they under filled or forgot to fill it moreso than fear of 1 quart over filled, but that's just me.

Check your filter cap, too, to make sure they didn't leave it lose or overtighten and crack it.

 

[jeepdabest]

One more thing...I hope all that makes sense. Viscosity and how it is measured really IS hard to understand and explain.

Bottom line: Check your oil. Even if they WAY overfilled it, as in beyond 6 quarts, it won't have the chance to cause problems if you catch it relatively quickly. NEVER get an oil change and fail to check it shortly afterward. Also, for accuracy, make sure you do it by the book, which means the engine is fully up to operating temp (has run 20 minutes or more, and not just idling) and check it 5 minutes after shutoff.

...and stop worrying about 0w20 oil being too thin. It is fine. There are engines that have run well past 200k with 5w20, which is in the same thickness range at operating temp as 0w20. Many have been Pentastars, btw.

I would check it right after a change more out of fear that they under filled or forgot to fill it moreso than fear of 1 quart over filled, but that's just me.

Check your filter cap, too, to make sure they didn't leave it lose or overtighten and crack it.

Was Danville, Indiana named after you?

 

[blnewt]

I believe that leak in the picture they posted was caused by bad or pinched seals or loose bolts. I could be wrong, but I've never heard of a leak like that that wasn't from a seal issue. If it was due to overfilling, it would have been way beyond 6 quarts, and not coming from main seals, but probably places oil wasn't supposed to reach, or causing a condition to blow the seals out. EIther way, I think it would take more than 6 quarts to get there. Again, I think that leak was caused by the seals not being in the correct intended condition.

Great info post, as far as the overfill causing the seal leak, you are probably correct that a seal wasn't seated properly or a defective seal, but from what I gathered from the OP in that post is everything was fine prior to the overfill (or maybe it was starting to seep??) so it may have resulted in extra pressure on that area causing the problem seal to fully fail.

At any rate, overfilling by a quart is definitely something you don't want to have your motor subjected to, so like you mentioned, check that oil change ASAP after getting serviced. OR JUST DIY AND KNOW IT'S NOT F'D UP

 

[DanW]

Was Danville, Indiana named after you?

It would be much less flattering if named after me, I'm sure!

 

[DanW]

Great info post, as far as the overfill causing the seal leak, you are probably correct that a seal wasn't seated properly or a defective seal, but from what I gathered from the OP in that post is everything was fine prior to the overfill (or maybe it was starting to seep??) so it may have resulted in extra pressure on that area causing the problem seal to fully fail.

At any rate, overfilling by a quart is definitely something you don't want to have your motor subjected to, so like you mentioned, check that oil change ASAP after getting serviced. OR JUST DIY AND KNOW IT'S NOT F'D UP

I guess it could happen, but I'd think it would take much more than 6 quarts, or it was enough to reach a tipping point with a flawed seal. Either way, that pic was of a catastrophic leak, for sure!

 

[jeepdabest]

It would be much less flattering if named after me, I'm sure!

I know I speak for all....thanks for all the great info!

 

[Kluk Ztopolovky]

We need to be careful here in Canada if we DIY oil changes. The oil is in 5 litre containers which equals 5.28344 US quarts. To put in the proper amount of oil you will need to put in only 4.73176 litres.

right, good point, thanks

 

[Solidaxle]

Whomever wrote the jeep owners manual thinks overfilling is a big deal.

 

[DanW]

Whomever wrote the jeep owners manual thinks overfilling is a big deal.

Nobody said it wasn't a big deal. However, 6 quarts isn't going to blow your engine. If you think it will, then you don't understand exactly what overfilling does or specifically the problem it can cause. The damage doesn't happen quicky, so if you check your oil reasonably soon after a change, you will easily have be able to correct it before damage is done. 7 or 8 quarts might be quicker to cause a problem, but nobody has reported more than 6 quarts and nobody said to just keep driving it overfilled. Also, nobody has reported engine damaged caused by overfilling, in spite of the epidemic of dealerships filling them with 6 quarts.

 

[Robs JL]

I believe that leak in the picture they posted was caused by bad or pinched seals or loose bolts. I could be wrong, but I've never heard of a leak like that that wasn't from a seal issue. If it was due to overfilling, it would have been way beyond 6 quarts, and not coming from main seals, but probably places oil wasn't supposed to reach, or causing a condition to blow the seals out. EIther way, I think it would take more than 6 quarts to get there. Again, I think that leak was caused by the seals not being in the correct intended condition.

The big threat from oil being over filled is the crank shaft causing aeration of the oil as it mixes it with air. You might be able to see it on the dipstick, right after shutoff, but I'm not certain of that. I'm not saying a leak can't develop, I just think the leak shown in the pics is not the symptom for overfilling, but rather a seal issue or something else. Aeration of the oil is bad because it changes the hydraulic characteristics of the oil, which can cause problems particularly in the valve train, and it can shorten the life of the oil.

As for their speculation on thin oil, I'd doubt that, too. First of all, the seals in the 3.6 are designed from the start to handle 0w20 oil. Besides that, the reality is that a 5w30 weight vs. a 0w20 weight isn't as big an actual difference as everyone thinks. First of all, at full operating temp, a 30 weight is MUCH thinner than the 0 weight at cold temp. Viscosity measurement is very hard to explain. Take 0w20, for example. the 0 means that it flows in the 0 viscosity range when cold, which is (surprisingly) measured at 104 degrees. The 20 means that it flows as a 20 at 212 degrees. If you look at the actual difference between a 20 weight and a 30, in reality, it isn't very much. The difference between a zero and a 5 at 104 degrees is even less. So everyone has this idea that 0w20 is dramatically thinner than 5w30 but in reality, the difference isn't huge. Those seals can handle 0w20. Hondas and Toyotas are now running around with 0w16 and they aren't blowing up or leaking everywhere.

By the way, any oil is actually MUCH thinner at high temperature than at low temp. You have to think of the rating as "behaves as". 0w20 isn't thicker at high temp as it is at low temp, even though the weight rating looks that way. So, a 0w20 "behaves" as a zero weight at 104 degrees, but "behaves" as a 20 weight at 212.

Another way to look at this is that even a 10w30 at 212 degrees actually runs faster (is thinner) than a 0w20 at 104 degrees, and even moreso at 50 or 60 degrees. I'll also point out that a PAO or Group IV based 10w30 might have a lower pour point than a conventional 5w30 or 5w20. (Mobil 1 EP 10w30 has a pour point at -39 C, while Valvoline conventional 5w20 has a pour point of -36 C, for example.) That gets into a whole other area of chemistry, though.

A 0w20 vs even a 10w30 doesn't make much difference to modern engine seals.

Remember this, too. There are literally tens of thousands of JL's and probably Grand Cherokees running around with this new 3.6 where dealerships have overfilled them to 6 quarts. While I wouldn't recommend it, I don't believe it is causing any or at least many serious problems. If it were, FCA would be putting out an APB with a red alert to all the dealerships, on the double, because they'd be getting a deluge of warranty claims, and that would cost them lots of money. Nothing gets their attention like bleeding money on a large scale. I'm not saying it isn't harmful in the long run, I'm just saying that it isn't causing mayhem, either. You probably have to go beyond 6 quarts to get aeration, which is again, the biggest problem that can come from it. Time will tell, though.

If you see overfilling on your dipstick, take care of it. If you see foaming or bubbles in the oil on the dipstick, then it may indicate aeration. (It might not be visible, though, especially if the engine has been sitting, allowing air to escape from the oil.) If the oil doesn't look normal, then get it checked immediately, and I wouldn't recommend running the engine. I haven't seen anyone with overfilling on this forum or any other post a pic of aerated or abnormal looking oil on the dipstick, yet, thank goodness.

I'd also recommend documenting any overfill cases from the dealership, even if only by 1/2 quart. They do have a dummy margin built into the specs, as it is common for people to overfill, at least a little. However, I doubt they thought the dummies would be their own dealerships.

Actually Honda's are having issues. Mine uses 0w20 and have had seal issues at 2k. Oil is so thin that the seals they've manufactured aren't doing the job and it's across the board. Now they're using 0w16 which is worse but maybe they've figured the seal problem on the new ones. Hopefully FCA did a good job cuz I'm at 2600 miles and no issues with oil.

 

[WandererJL]

Nobody said it wasn't a big deal. However, 6 quarts isn't going to blow your engine. If you think it will, then you don't understand exactly what overfilling does or specifically the problem it can cause. The damage doesn't happen quicky, so if you check your oil reasonably soon after a change, you will easily have be able to correct it before damage is done. 7 or 8 quarts might be quicker to cause a problem, but nobody has reported more than 6 quarts and nobody said to just keep driving it overfilled. Also, nobody has reported engine damaged caused by overfilling, in spite of the epidemic of dealerships filling them with 6 quarts.

I'm the OP for the other thread that has been mentioned here a few times and I completely agree that my failure was due to something physically wrong with the seal or housing. It is now going back in saturday for the third/fourth attemp to repair, and I specifically called out the last time 5 quarts, made a stink about it and checked before I left. It was filled with only five quarts and didnt make it 24 hours before it started leaking again...

IMHO, if this leak was just caused by thin oil and the seals not being able to handle it, there would be more evidence. To my knowledge, there haven't been many cases of oil leaks on the front of the 3.6 in the JL. I'm not saying this is impossible, just would think that there would be more press. With that said, I have heard of a number of rear main failures, but havent heard of many of them going back for rework.

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