Any chance of V8 for JL Wrangler?

[The Great Grape Ape]

Again, first and foremost, I don't think the Hemi is coming to the Wrangler, but certainly the barriers being mentioned aren't sufficient a reason. More just there isn't enough competitive pressure, so FCA is Lazy !!

It sells as much and sometimes more than the Grand Cherokee or almsot any other FCA product and it only had 1 engine for about a decade, while the GC had 6 !?! Yeah that's not logic, it's marketing and accounting BS !!

Well guys, it's just not ever going to happen. There has never been a factory V8 in a Jeep Wrangler since they debuted in 1987, and there never will be. From an engineering standpoint, it's not necessary and it's too expensive. That's just all there is to it.

We've had this discussion before an all you arguments apply to the bigger, heavier and more expensive diesel, except the HEMI market is already shown to command a big premium, I'm still doubtful Jeepers will pay the usual $4K premium for the EcoDiesel let alone, likely a bigger bump (cause it caomes with the 700+NM transmission).

Not to mention that FCA overall has plans to drop Hemi V8 engines from vehicles across the board over the next 5-10 years.

Again, same applies to diesel which is not getting any refresh research and relies on oly Tech (even the EcoDiesel is licenses Fiat tech).

CAFE standards are getting tighter, crash testing is getting more strict, and many people speculate that the combustion engine is a dying breed. I personally drive a V8 every single day right now, and most of the dozens of vehicles I've owned have had V8 engines. But when you're talking future mid-size 4x4s you can simply forget about fuel thirsty V8s...it ain't happnin'.

CAFE is aided by MDS, as well as the Pentastar's E85, and if they were so focused on it, why even bother with a turbo4 vs the 2.4L 4cylinder, then put the 1.4Turbo in the Hybrid. Diesel used to be the Euro darling, but it's being legislsted out of existance, and it won't last here because it's still super niche. Hemi GC still outsells EcoDiesel by about 10+ to 1 and Pentastar like 3+:1 even when they were hard court press on EcoDiesel.

And for the record, I've owned two diesel Jeeps and neither of them "sucked in the cold".

For the record, you obviously don't live or play in the cold.

I plugged them up when the temp. went below 0°F and never had a single no-start issue.

0F, who the FAQ calls that cold for starting issues? I'm talking about unplugged in the back country or on a ski hill all day in temps around -40, THAT is cold.
I do that with the Pentastar every year for Ski Race season (where noon temps are -36) and the Pentastar starts remotely like a charm every time (thanks also in part due to synthetic oil not straining the starter). What is stuck in the lot after the races... diesel, because even with winter fuel, their fuel filters freeze up and the glow plugs can't keep up, especially if they are older. And look at the CRD's GlowPlug warning saying they are not expect to work well bellow -25 even after 2 full cycles. With the EcoDiesel not having a pre-heater it's not going to fair better, and if your winter diesel freezes at its near -24 point then you're hooped, and if you use arctic/polar diesel which is common here, but not where most people come from to go skiing, then at about -41 to -43 you're not pushing crystal and wax through the filter or the system.

Regular gasoline is fine to below -60C, which I have experienced as a non-wind-chill calculated temperature with addional 130KPH winds on top of a ski hill when the Stratosphere popped down for a few hours. Now THAT'S FAQin Cold !!

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[WaltA]

And for the record, I've owned two diesel Jeeps and neither of them "sucked in the cold". I plugged them up when the temp. went below 0°F and never had a single no-start issue.

As long as there is a power outlet under every rock when out on the trail, having to plug them in shouldn't ever be a problem.

 

[DieselPower]

I swear, in the Grand Cherokee, the EcoDiesel feels more effortless and maybe a little quicker (at least just as quick) as the 5.7 Hemi. I honestly don't know why you would want the Hemi. It doesn't sound that good. It's not like it sounds amazing. The SRT 392 does of course.
Anyway, the 5.7 is going away in a few years and getting replaced by the 3.0 Turbo Inline 6. I would bet that will make it into the Wrangler. It would have a lot more low-end torque.

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

I swear, in the Grand Cherokee, the EcoDiesel feels more effortless and maybe a little quicker (at least just as quick) as the 5.7 Hemi. I honestly don't know why you would want the Hemi. It doesn't sound that good. It's not like it sounds amazing.

It's slower, empirically, it's a fact, and not by a small amount, heck it's even slower than the Pentastar as already mentioned in another thread.

0-60
Hemi 5.7: 6.6 Seconds
Pentastar: 7.7
EcoDiesel: 7.8

1/4 Mile
5.7L: 14.9 @ 92.8 MPH
Pen: 15.8 @ 88.4 MPH
Eco: 16.0 @ 83.3 MPH

The Hemi definitely sounds better than the Pentastar but that doesn't really matter, that's for posers with pop cans on their mufflers. Although I do miss my two previous Mustangs enough to likely give it the beans in Mountain passes and long tunnels. Hey I di that now with the Pentastar, would do it with the ED or TinyTurbo too, but don't care otherwise in day to day use.
Simply put, the Hemi suits my needs regarding extreme cold and better power than the Pentastar, while mainting low cost of ownership and reliability vs the ED & tinyturbo4.

Anyway, the 5.7 is going away in a few years and getting replaced by the 3.0 Turbo Inline 6. I would bet that will make it into the Wrangler. It would have a lot more low-end torque.

A lot more?
Not really.

A bit more?
Possibly, but only if it beats the current predicted Tornado power levels because the latest 5.7L is 400+/400+ , 420lbft/395HP in RAM form.
So the i6T needs to beat the hype, which is still a BIG question mark, in the same way people over-hyped the Hurricane, and yet that TurboSaviour is not the 300HP variant everyone was gesticulating about either, but instead a more sedate pedestrian one that is the Base Wrangler engine, not a Pentastar beater.
Likely the same happens with the Tornado, and the Euro version and Challenger/Charger versions get the hyper tune and proper performance features like a closed / semi-closed deck and lotsa aluminium and exotic bits, while the RAM and Wrangler versions get the reliable tune and build to survive not being pampered.

Also, by the time the inline-6s come out (what's the ETA 2025?) it's highly likely the Full Hybrid might be the better choice with better torque delivery and make the I6turbo pointless.

Also it's still a big question mark if even the Wrangler makes it that far, all the hemming an hawing over the JL is going to be nothing compared to its replacement in 10 years.

 

[65Hemi]

It wouldn't have to be a V8 to make me happy - there are other options. For example, an optional twin turbo 400 horsepower V6 like they have available in the Porsche Macan sport ute would be sufficient.

 

[DieselPower]

It's slower, empirically, it's a fact, and not by a small amount, heck it's even slower than the Pentastar as already mentioned in another thread.

0-60
Hemi 5.7: 6.6 Seconds
Pentastar: 7.7
EcoDiesel: 7.8

1/4 Mile
5.7L: 14.9 @ 92.8 MPH
Pen: 15.8 @ 88.4 MPH
Eco: 16.0 @ 83.3 MPH

The Hemi definitely sounds better than the Pentastar but that doesn't really matter, that's for posers with pop cans on their mufflers. Although I do miss my two previous Mustangs enough to likely give it the beans in Mountain passes and long tunnels. Hey I di that now with the Pentastar, would do it with the ED or TinyTurbo too, but don't care otherwise in day to day use.
Simply put, the Hemi suits my needs regarding extreme cold and better power than the Pentastar, while mainting low cost of ownership and reliability vs the ED & tinyturbo4.



A lot more?
Not really.

A bit more?
Possibly, but only if it beats the current predicted Tornado power levels because the latest 5.7L is 400+/400+ , 420lbft/395HP in RAM form.
So the i6T needs to beat the hype, which is still a BIG question mark, in the same way people over-hyped the Hurricane, and yet that TurboSaviour is not the 300HP variant everyone was gesticulating about either, but instead a more sedate pedestrian one that is the Base Wrangler engine, not a Pentastar beater.
Likely the same happens with the Tornado, and the Euro version and Challenger/Charger versions get the hyper tune and proper performance features like a closed / semi-closed deck and lotsa aluminium and exotic bits, while the RAM and Wrangler versions get the reliable tune and build to survive not being pampered.

Also, by the time the inline-6s come out (what's the ETA 2025?) it's highly likely the Full Hybrid might be the better choice with better torque delivery and make the I6turbo pointless.

Also it's still a big question mark if even the Wrangler makes it that far, all the hemming an hawing over the JL is going to be nothing compared to its replacement in 10 years.

Maybe they are the official numbers at sea level of course, but I drove them back to back working at a CDJR dealership in Idaho at 4,700 ft. Two of us said the same thing. We thought the 5.7 would feel quicker than it did. What those numbers don't tell you is there is an initial lag on the diesel. It's not bad, but the gas will always respond a little quicker from a stand still. Once the turbo spoils up on the diesel, it feels neck and neck. Then, the Hemi needs to hold on to those gears longer and scream. That's where its peak power and torque are. I think if you drove the two, you would probably have the same reaction we did. But the diesel definitely does that acceleration with a lot less fuss. The difference in those numbers at sea level isn't as big as you might think either. Maybe if it were a drag race between the two cars, maybe the Hemi would be a car length or so ahead? That's not just at sea level, but also on a straight level road by the way. They do those official acceleration times in optimal conditions. The naturally aspirated Hemi loses more power at altitude. I live at 4,700 feet, maybe another reason why the Hemi Grand Cherokee was a let down compared to the diesel. You bring an incline to the mix, and it's the diesel with it's added torque that's going to do better. The other thing those numbers don't tell you is the Hemi needs to downshift a lot more. It feels a bit flat when cruising in 8th gear. Any time you feel like picking up speed, it will kick down a few gears. The diesel doesn't do that unless you really step on it. It can accelerate in gear just fine. That's also comparing how the two engines behave in the Ram 1500. Yes the Hemi will launch off the line quicker and get to 60 quicker. In the Ram, the 5.7 feels better than in the GC. But it has more power and the torque isn't gobbled up driving two axles all the time.
Also, what is your real world driving style like? Are you going to be hitting the redline frequently, racing people? Or are you shifting around 2000-3000 most of the time? Maybe going WOT to get up to speed on the freeway onramp, or turning into a highway. If you aren't using the Hemi in that 4,000-redline range, there is no way it's going to be quicker. Especially under load (up a hill etc). The Hemi's peak torque is a 4,400rpm. The diesel's is at 2,000rpm. It's palpable. The acceleration difference isn't as obvious as the torque difference. That's better for everything. Going on trails or driving to get to the trails. When you modify your Jeep with a lift kit and bigger tires, you are adding even more resistance, which the Hemi will have a harder time with on the highway.

I just don't see any real advantage of the V8 over the diesel in terms of performance, economy, or range. But I do see an advantage over the V6 where it apparently got 1mpg better than the V6 and of course better torque. But they are probably just waiting for the 3.0 GTDI inline 6.
They were talking 2020, not 2024. But it's FCA and they usually take forever to do anything. Yes, a lot more low end torque. Have you driven the EcoBoost F150s? Or at least seen their torque curves on a graph? Flat as a pancake! Holds gears much better up hills, tows better, accelerates quicker in all conditions. If FCA is using an inline 6, it should be even torquier than a comparable V6. It needs to happen sooner rather than later.

But we are comparing dinosaur technology here, we just need high performance electric with solid state batteries.

 

[Billy]

Seems I'm not alone...

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

Maybe they are the official numbers at sea level of course, but I drove them back to back working at a CDJR dealership in Idaho at 4,700 ft.

Sure, and there's a granny who beat that Diesel with her Chevette in Tahoe @ 6,000 ft and then towed it over the Rubicon in 2nd gear.
Seriously, do all you diesel fanbois go on your 'feelings' but can't find a single credible review?

Sure, altitude is a factor as I've previously mentioned, but so what? You didn't couch your statement until afterward. And even at 4,500 feet where I am, it's still barrly 15% reduction, meaning the Hemi still has 120HP more than the ED.
Of course you can always take your $5,000+ premium and get a forced air setup for either gasser if you're so inclined.

I just don't see any real advantage of the V8 over the diesel in terms of performance, economy, or range.

Hemi has better performance, lower cost of ownership, and has gasoline pumps everywhere. If you want an overlander, spend 1/3 of the added diesel cost and get yourself a 25 gallon extended fuel tank which will put you 300 miles beyond the diesel's range.

They were talking 2020, not 2024.

Got a credible source for that, or are is this another feeling again?

Because the article from Allpar, which everyone including TruckTrend etc source for their respetive articles has a Timeframe of 2022-2024+ at the earliest , not 2020 (which is 2.4 years away in case you forgot);

http://www.allpar.com/news/2017/02/return-of-the-straight-six-36574
"At this stage, we only have rumors, but if the engines are “for real,” we should expect to see them in around five to seven years."

Have you driven the EcoBoost F150s? Or at least seen their torque curves on a graph?

Yeah, and it's laggy, and they suck at reliability, laughably so. Also competes against a crippled Ford V8 instead of an updated one, so not the best comparison. Especially, when even Ford publically says the V8 is for reliability and the EcoBust is for the weekender towing their small boat or camper who doesn't need that level of reliability.

But we are comparing dinosaur technology here, we just need high performance electric with solid state batteries.

At least that we can agree on, and that's precisely why the i6T is late to the party. In 7 years there will be something better than the Turbo prince that was promised and the Tornado is likely to be as fizzly a dissapontment as the Hurricane falling well short of its 300HP numbers.

 

[WXman]

Have you driven the EcoBoost F150s? Or at least seen their torque curves on a graph? Flat as a pancake! Holds gears much better up hills, tows better, accelerates quicker in all conditions. If FCA is using an inline 6, it should be even torquier than a comparable V6. It needs to happen sooner rather than later.

But we are comparing dinosaur technology here, we just need high performance electric with solid state batteries.

Yes, and the EcoBust was such a piece of trash that after just 5 years in the marketplace they totally scrapped it and started over from scratch with a new version that shares zero parts with the original. Is a flat torque curve helpful from the rack at the repair shop?

And who wants an electric vehicle for water crossings and offroad use? Electrics are heavy, prone to water damage, have to be recharged constantly, and are very horrible for the environment because battery manufacturing is one of the dirtiest things you can do at a factory.

 

[DieselPower]

Sure, and there's a granny who beat that Diesel with her Chevette in Tahoe @ 6,000 ft and then towed it over the Rubicon in 2nd gear.
Seriously, do all you diesel fanbois go on your 'feelings' but can't find a single credible review?

Sure, altitude is a factor as I've previously mentioned, but so what? You didn't couch your statement until afterward. And even at 4,500 feet where I am, it's still barrly 15% reduction, meaning the Hemi still has 120HP more than the ED.
Of course you can always take your $5,000+ premium and get a forced air setup for either gasser if you're so inclined.



Hemi has better performance, lower cost of ownership, and has gasoline pumps everywhere. If you want an overlander, spend 1/3 of the added diesel cost and get yourself a 25 gallon extended fuel tank which will put you 300 miles beyond the diesel's range.



Got a credible source for that, or are is this another feeling again?

Because the article from Allpar, which everyone including TruckTrend etc source for their respetive articles has a Timeframe of 2022-2024+ at the earliest , not 2020 (which is 2.4 years away in case you forgot);

http://www.allpar.com/news/2017/02/return-of-the-straight-six-36574
"At this stage, we only have rumors, but if the engines are “for real,” we should expect to see them in around five to seven years."



Yeah, and it's laggy, and they suck at reliability, laughably so. Also competes against a crippled Ford V8 instead of an updated one, so not the best comparison. Especially, when even Ford publically says the V8 is for reliability and the EcoBust is for the weekender towing their small boat or camper who doesn't need that level of reliability.



At least that we can agree on, and that's precisely why the i6T is late to the party. In 7 years there will be something better than the Turbo prince that was promised and the Tornado is likely to be as fizzly a dissapontment as the Hurricane falling well short of its 300HP numbers.

Clearly your experience is limited to reviews and links, I'm just talking about real world experience. If Motor Trend prefers the V8, I would be like "so what? I know how they drive." I know what I prefer. Growing up in Australia, we always preferred diesel for off-road for the reeasons I stated. The new diesels really took away the advantages that V8s used to have over them when diesels were slow on the road. Yes, I care more about how they "feel" when I drive them compared to reading somebody's acceleration tests on a race track. Especially when the purpose of the vehicle has nothing to do with race tracks at sea level. I have driven all these 5.7's and you are still trying to sell me on it. I'm not saying they are bad, I just don't think they are as good as the other engines. Yes they are cheap and provide good acceleration. But not substantially better than the V6 diesel.
In a years time we will know all this for sure.
My prediction:

JL Diesel V6: 0-60 in 8 seconds with about 25mpg.

JL 5.7 V8: 0-60 in never. Because they won't make it.

My only hope is they do a portal axle option on the Rubicon. But that will come out about the same time as the 5.7.

Buddy, you don't have to believe anything I say. I don't really care. I'm just trying to share some real world experience. Not race track times at sea level. You can fantasize all you want about this 5.7 Jeep that doesn't even exist, and never will from the factory. So you can get a conversion. Or just get the diesel V6 and delete the emissions crap, add a tuner and make it as quick as you want. I don't care about acceleration times in an off-road rig. I care about low-end torque, range, and capability.

Anyway keep calling people fanbois when you get frustrated.

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

As for the Hemi torque curve, it's flater than you make it out to be and power is early than y'all think, especially on the latest Gen3 engines.

Like the Pentastar you get more than 90% of the power under 2,000 RPM, and that Pentastar torque curve is about to get even better with all the PSU/PUG updates.

But of course with naturally aspirated gasoline it's go now, with a turbo diesel or gas, it's wait then go, so the time it take to get to that power takes longer when you have to wait a second to overcome turbo lag.
Start the stop-watch at the same time, and then you're hitting 2,000 RPM when the Hemi is already well into 4K and beyond. SOOoo diesel slow.

 

[DieselPower]

I guess there is a market for a Hellcat Wrangler. Because the most important thing in an off-road vehicle is 0-60. Sorry, I mistook this forum for off-road enthusiasts.

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

Clearly your experience is limited to reviews and links, I'm just talking about real world experience.

In other words 'Alternative Facts'.

My real world experience: diesels are slow, and don't work in the cold. They are great at towing a planet up a hill, except for the Wrangler isn't designed to tow a hous up a mountian, so pointless. Best fit for the JT, sure, best fit for the JL not even close.

Stating they won't make the Hemi, is a cop-out as to why it's a good fit or better than the diesel, despite pretty much every one of us stating it won't ever be seen in a stock Wrangler. However, what will be interesting is if the stock Ecodiesel gets smoked by a Hemi JK despite all the help of the 8-speed auto, and that's very likely.

I guess there is a market for a Hellcat Wrangler. Because the most important thing in an off-road vehicle is 0-60. Sorry, I mistook this forum for off-road enthusiasts.

You can thank your colleague Billy for that who claimed he was gonna blow everyone away with his diesel.
Even for off-roading Hemi has more torque, more power , more reliable thanks to Emissions stuff and also in winter, Hemi also weighs less, and costs less so you can buy more upgrades.

Off-roading in North America is more than Aussie Overlanding on flat earth in hot weather.

Anyway keep calling people fanbois when you get frustrated.

Keep using feelings when you have no facts, seems like the only thing diesel folks have, and it's all centered around their pants.

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

Yes, and the EcoBust was such a piece of trash that after just 5 years in the marketplace they totally scrapped it and started over from scratch with a new version that shares zero parts with the original. Is a flat torque curve helpful from the rack at the repair shop?

Sad thing is the new Ecobust is no better, a friend just had a brand new one with less than a 100KMs on it blow-up like a rifle shot. Took him 2 months to get Ford to agree to replace it instead of repairing it (Canada doesn't have a lemon law similar to the US), I'd be surprised if that's a one-off.

 

[DieselPower]

Clearly you're angry about something. I've had plenty of V8s and I'm not really a diesel only guy. Just a quick name I thought of. How about stop getting personal and nasty and try and stick to talking about Jeeps? Yes diesels are a pain to have to plug in in the winter. But form my experience, while the Cummins and Duramax diesels had problems starting in -15 deg F without being plugged in, the EcoDiesels didn't have that issue. They started straight away. So whether it was a real concern or justification to support your preference, it doesn't seem to be a problem with that engine. Nor is performance. Unless you think anything slower than 6 seconds is "slow," in which case the 5.7 isn't going to be much use for you either. Especially when you add the lift kit and the 35's.

In other words 'Alternative Facts'.

My real world experience: diesels are slow, and don't work in the cold. They are great at towing a planet up a hill, except for the Wrangler isn't designed to tow a hous up a mountian, so pointless. Best fit for the JT, sure, best fit for the JL not even close.

Stating they won't make the Hemi, is a cop-out as to why it's a good fit or better than the diesel, despite pretty much every one of us stating it won't ever be seen in a stock Wrangler. However, what will be interesting is if the stock Ecodiesel gets smoked by a Hemi JK despite all the help of the 8-speed auto, and that's very likely.



Keep usung feelings when you have no facts, seems like the only thing diesel folks have, and it's all centered around their pants.

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