rallydefault

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Disappointed that acknowledging reality in PC company is now labeled as political commentary..
Just stop. I'm so sick of the garbage. You threw in a political jab, so you got one in return. Take it in stride and continue the dialogue if you want, but don't start a "woe is me" routine.





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INCRHULK

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Disappointed that acknowledging reality in PC company is now labeled as political commentary..
"Selling out to OPEC" is certainly political commentary, when he's using ti to pitch a narrative that's false.
 

INCRHULK

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Interestingly, Germany, which is located in a moderately cold climate, is experiencing blackouts this winter as well and from where I am at in the world, electrical power disruptions seems to be a re-occurring issue in California.
Much of California's issues are almost identical to Texas' right now. Poor infrastructure. In California's case, the power companies haven't invested in infrastructure upgrades to replace ageing lines and increased demand.

Texas, on the other hand, hasn't invested in weatherizing the system or installing local supplies of methane gas to buffer spikes in demand. Both are the result of trying to "optimize profits".

Germany made a bet that they would have scaled grid storage up before the thermal generation was a minor part of their supply, and bet on importing energy if needed during high demand in the meantime.

Ideally, production in North America should switch to small-scale hydro, wind, geothermal, solar, tidal and nuclear, with thermal generation being the absolute last-ditch standby. This means modernizing the continental grids and investing in grid storage as well. This would help reduce the issues being seen in capacity and reliability. The push to decarbonize power generation must scale, and quickly.
 
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HardSell

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I'm so sick of the garbage.
OK. Since you brought up garbage, lets discuss your twists.
But you gotta drop the hyper emotional speech and non sequiturs
Please quote the "non sequiturs" you've referenced. Please exemplify the "hyper emotional speech". If you're referring to quotes or facts....well...what can I add? Moreover, it occurs to me, "hyper emotional speech" is something that is heard, not written as everything in this forum is text unless linked to a file....so, I don't get what you're hearing. You might need to get that checked out.

Writing off an entire power source because of a once-in-a-generation storm is just a step too far.
Have I written off an entire power source? Please show me where I wrote that or was that something else in your head you heard me say? Seems the only power source being written off here is the entire fossil fuel infrastructure built, developed, invested in, maintained and modernized the past 140 years or so. It's apparent to me that early adopters, more accurately, zealots, as yourself are eager to accept sacrificial inconvenience while having no regard for actual cost. Whatever motivates you to do so is perplexing, but concurrently disparaging those who dare to academically engage to consider the disadvantages of what you're promoting betrays some sort of an internal conflict you are apparently dealing with. The tactic of denigration in debate circles is recognized as a cover up to be deployed when an argument becomes fundamentally weak. Trump, to his demise, frequently indulged that very tactic. Take that away and your vision for what the ICE "fan base" sees may align with the reality the rest of us deal in.
Be realistic
If total electrification of personal transportation ultimately proves itself economically viable in the absence of deep tax subsidies (publicly forced monetary support) and politically motivated coercion, it will achieve universal application due to the scientific nature of economics as related to human behavior. Being realistic, one cannot ignore that deeply subsidized technology is a societal flashing neon sign advertising that such technologies have a weak basis in economic reality foisted by special interests. I regard subsidized interstate passenger rail travel
SubsidizedPassengerRail.jpg

and deep tax credits for EVs as related phenomena; the few gaining at the cost of the many. The irony of extravagantly priced EVs unable to be charged because renewable energy sources were unavailable at the same time fossil fuel generation had been "written off" for sake of green applications is unmistakably hilarious! If a profligate EV was sitting in my driveway over a freezing weekend after selling my ICE bound neighbor on the merits of green tech, I'd be rather embarrassed. Also, I'd be sensing jeers from all the ICE people living nearby having seen evidence sitting in my driveway as testimonial for my thriftless, resource consuming efforts to save the environment.

Now, for non sequitur: "The future is not with fossil fuels, period"...."There will still be uses for them and plenty of lingering uses for quite some time to come,".."but oil is not the future.." (Enter: Aflac duck)

How often has that area seen a storm like this? Once in a lifetime? Not in most people's memories?
Apparently, the citizens of Pompeii held a similar line of thinking regarding their location. All the climate people risk their professional reputations issuing warnings of such events and hold that such storms due to man caused climate change are destined to increase in frequency to the point the planet will soon become just as uninhabitable as Texas was this past weekend. Your dismissal of the chill and its consequences suggests you reject the inevitability of climate change, or was that just a non sequitur slip of conscience? Need I write more regarding, "non sequiturs"? By all means, point mine out. I'm a curious child.
 

INCRHULK

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If total electrification of personal transportation ultimately proves itself economically viable in the absence of deep tax subsidies (publicly forced monetary support) and politically motivated coercion,
This is farcical. Are you aware of just how much fossil fuels are subsidized via direct subsidies and tax incentives? How much US and western policies have been shaped by access to oil reserves?
 

Oilburner

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Hmm. Build a new ‘skateboard’ platform from scratch in a plant that must be purchased/built OR get your foot in the door of the EV game building on an existing chassis with some components you already have, and produce it in an existing plant on an existing production line & get a product to market before the other guy.
One can criticize the engineering of the EV Wrangler (Concept) but it’s pretty obvious why they built the prototype the way they did = spend billions or millions to produce?
 

INCRHULK

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Hmm. Build a new ‘skateboard’ platform from scratch in a plant that must be purchased/built OR get your foot in the door of the EV game building on an existing chassis with some components you already have, and produce it in an existing plant on an existing production line & get a product to market before the other guy.
One can criticize the engineering of the EV Wrangler (Concept) but it’s pretty obvious why they built the prototype the way they did = spend billions or millions to produce?
Yeah, except to properly build a BEV it needs to be a ground-up platform. While this is a concept, it loses much utility by being built on an existing ICE platform. I know Stellantis is hoping to recover the costs of the multi-million dollar investment in the JL platform, but at some point, it needs to bite the bullet. Being that the Wrangler is a body-on-frame design, I can't see why they don't design a body to optimize for BEV. the floor becomes the battery pack. Drop all the heavy running gear, and either go with four smaller motors to drive each wheel, or connect a motor to each axel.
 

Oilburner

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Oilburner said:
Build a new ‘skateboard’ platform from scratch...
Yeah, except to properly build a BEV it needs to be a ground-up platform.

This is literally what I said (see above)

... Being that the Wrangler is a body-on-frame design, I can't see why they don't design a body to optimize for BEV. the floor becomes the battery pack. Drop all the heavy running gear, and either go with four smaller motors to drive each wheel, or connect a motor to each axel.
And I believe you will see them do exactly this as soon as possible. Right now, Ford has heavily invested in Rivian so they will get to reap the rewards of their EV platform & apply it to the Bronco (after creating a revised body for it). I think the new Stelantis (sp?) has resources to bring an EV platform over, but Jeep wants to get to market first, and does not have the manufacturing capacity to start an exclusive EV line at this time. If they go to production with the EJS EV Wrangler it would be a stop-gap measure. I continue to point out that it is only a prototype also, could just be an experiment to test a theory, imagine the outrage if Jeep trotted out an EV wrangler that didn't have straight axles? There is precedence for stuff like that...
 

AnnDee4444

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How did you charge your EV in last night's and last weekend's Texas power outages? All articles claim there's much more to come for all states. Biden is limiting oil exploration and drilling, selling out to Opec. Soon we'll be dependent once again on middle east enemies.
Up 10,000%.jpg

That EV is gonna cost you.
It's not all bad. With Tesla's "Camp Mode" you can use the heater while the car is parked in a garage, rather than dying from carbon monoxide poisoning. Or even power your house: https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7v...rawing-power-from-their-cars-during-blackouts
 

HardSell

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This is farcical.
There we go again, attacking a different point of view using labels (the Trump debate tactic) to support your views rather than presenting facts and references. Could that be prejudice, bigotry, the obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction? I never denied oil subsidies, yet you dismiss the reality of green subsidies and their alternative costs*.
RatePayersPay.jpg

Your thinking is not even two dimensional. In skipping directly to three dimensional level of thinking applied to reality as it relates to special interests of the few underwritten by the many, for your sake, I'll point out the obvious which you should have considered before posting something you disagree with as "farcical". The obvious: Contrary to what some people deny, fossil fuel energy serves agriculture, exploration, medicine, all movement of people, product and services; the vast majority of electrification of energy; heating, plastics and warfare. Subsidies to fossil fuel are universal; by association, everyone participates in the benefits and costs of fossil fuel subsidies. Regarding EV related transportation, only the purchaser of an EV and its manufacturer reap the financial advantage of a customized tax credit (subsidy) while the many contribute to those fortunes by means of bearing alternative costs to the many for the sole benefit of the buyer and the manufacturer.*
AlternativeCost.jpg

Personally, I prefer all subsidies be stopped. I prefer reality vs special interest group imposed artificiality. If oil wasn't subsidized we'd see far more efficiency in all energy consuming products, most notably in Wranglers. If gasoline was not subsidized, costing $12 or more per gallon very few would buy a Wrangler as they are presently manufactured. At $4 per gallon (soon to become reality) non PHEV Wrangler sales will plummet along with the resale value of existing ICE only inventory.

I view reality as whatever is happening now, not what may happen 15-20 years from now. Right now, EVs are not competitive regarding convenience, cost and serviceability for serious wheeling in remote terrain. In consideration of reality as applied to remote 4 wheeling, one needs to distinguish between potential and reality. The definition of potential: existing in possibility; capable of development into future actuality and future benefits. My requirements for competitive EV applications regarding 4 wheeling: A tarmac range of 400 miles with charging station availability equal to contemporary gas filling stations. A full charge to take less than 10 minutes from access to payment. A 300 mile range as applied to a variety of 4 wheel drive terrain allowing for approach to and return from such terrain for fill ups (charging). When that becomes reality, then I'm all in. I would never push an incomplete, inconvenient, inconsistent, thriftless mode of travel for people 4 wheeling for the sake of PC. If the affluent or those who think they are want to wheel that way, I make no judgement. Concurrently, I won't be fooled into accepting under developed inconvenient technology as a prudent alternative. Last week, Texas suffered from a second kick of a mule.
SubsidizedRenewables.jpg

With Tesla's "Camp Mode" you can use the heater while the car is parked in a garage,
That's an awfully expensive band-aid to justify a completely failed, wazzock directed energy policy. "Camp Mode" seems pretty campy to me:CWL: Who ever in their right mind could reconcile a renewable only energy policy by such a declaration? "Oh you can spend a week sitting in a cramped seat of a non moving EV to stay warm.":CWL: I fully understand the motivation of keeping that act hidden in a garage after selling my neighbors on renewable only energy. I'll take the wood burning fireplace, thank you.

Idiocy is learning nothing from the first kick of a mule. Subsequent kicks result from arrogance.
 

Hazaa

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Wow everyone needs to calm down.

In the end the BEV will be good enough for 70% or more of the consumer base. If it doesn't fit your lifestyle, life or tastes then don't buy it.
Eventually ICE vehicles will come to an end and hopefully by then the battery tech or hydrogen fuel cell tech is good enough that remaining people can seamlessly transition.

Let's put the Google Poli Sci diplomas down and just enjoy that Jeep is doing everything it can to survive while giving those who want a BEV or PHEV and the 392 or Diesel.
 

ZeroTrev

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When you both have to nit pick that hard you're arguing the wrong things.

Ffs emotional speech isn't written. Come on man.

Learn to have a separate opinion, you can't always be "right" and you sure as hell aren't going to change someone's mind who has to pick apart shit like that.
 

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