AnnDee4444

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Ok being all electric, will it still be able to ford 30 inches of water without shorting out?
I would hope so. It depends on how good the waterproofing is.

All the eTorque models have a battery below 30", and I haven't heard of any water related issues with them.





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HardSell

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Not really trail-worthy though.
That's the point here. Can an EV Wrangler arriving to wheel remote, challenging terrain be solely supported by economic and practical applications of solar radiation to include completing the trail and returning to economic charging resources? It remains to be demonstrated. I doubt it can with today's or even near future technology. The charge in the battery just as gas in the tank is the first and weakest link in the chain that propels a 4-wheel drive adventure. As weak as that link is, ICE people give little thought to that link. The difference in thinking is due to the available infrastructure serving the goal of portable propulsion schemes and the practicality of applying resources allocated to those schemes. One of the major considerations regarding practicality is a driver's time required to replenish on board energy storage along with the frequency required to do so. ICE drivers are very comfortable dealing with gasoline. While expecting to pay more for fuel in remote locations we also expect it to be affordably available and we are equipped to carry enough to complete the trail and return to a facility.
$9per gallon equivalency.jpg

Requiring 20-30 minutes to charge a 120kWh* battery while not desireable is acceptable. However, is that the reality? *Batteries powering EV Wranglers for all day low range trail applications; 35+" tires; heat; transfer cases; locking axles, their weight and increased friction will require significantly more mass than a battery powering a small EV tarmac machine.
QuickCharging.jpg

To avoid running out of juice in the middle of nowhere, to complete a round trip to the charging station, we'll be demanding a full "fast" charge (2hours?) after those ahead of us have charged their rides. The following are links to discussions and commentary regarding the real world aspects of electric driving.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/charging-electric-cars/
Scroll to: Slow Charging Can Suit Solar "The more slowly a car is charged the easier it can be to charge it with solar power. "

https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/67517/portable-solar-panels-for-charging

"I like to backpack into lakes and often the trailhead will be too far (there and back) for the distance of the Tesla 3 (I have ordered) battery pack. Is there some system available with solar panels that I could carry in the car to add battery charge for the amount needed to get to a charging station or home for recharging. If there isn't something already available this might be a good product for Tesla to offer. Thanks for suggestions."
"dortor Posted June 2016
• this has been covered extensive - no portal panels provide enough power to matter - it just won't work
• at 300 watt/hours per-mile you would need a very very substantial system sitting in the sun for many many hours to even add 1-5 miles of range..
• if you're that concerned you're better off carrying a generator and some fuel."

That suggests a PHEV which is entirely suitable for economically wheeling remote terrain.

Pilots have demonstrated that it's possible to fly an aircraft around the globe solely powered by solar energy. Aeronautical engineers also know the limitations of solar powered flight regarding super sonic and combat applications. I welcome Stellantis's efforts to produce an EV for off road applications, but according to research and testimonial, claiming that today it's economical and practical is sheer nonsense, akin to Ford's 1957 Nucleon concept. Ergo, I'm paying no attention to that man behind the curtain.
 

AnnDee4444

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That's the point here. Can an EV Wrangler arriving to wheel remote, challenging terrain be solely supported by economic and practical applications of solar radiation to include completing the trail and returning to economic charging resources? It remains to be demonstrated. I doubt it can with today's or even near future technology. The charge in the battery just as gas in the tank is the first and weakest link in the chain that propels a 4-wheel drive adventure. As weak as that link is, ICE people give little thought to that link. The difference in thinking is due to the available infrastructure serving the goal of portable propulsion schemes and the practicality of applying resources allocated to those schemes. One of the major considerations regarding practicality is a driver's time required to replenish on board energy storage along with the frequency required to do so. ICE drivers are very comfortable dealing with gasoline. While expecting to pay more for fuel in remote locations we also expect it to be affordably available and we are equipped to carry enough to complete the trail and return to a facility.
$9per gallon equivalency.jpg

Requiring 20-30 minutes to charge a 120kWh* battery while not desireable is acceptable. However, is that the reality? *Batteries powering EV Wranglers for all day low range trail applications; 35+" tires; heat; transfer cases; locking axles, their weight and increased friction will require significantly more mass than a battery powering a small EV tarmac machine.
QuickCharging.jpg

To avoid running out of juice in the middle of nowhere, to complete a round trip to the charging station, we'll be demanding a full "fast" charge (2hours?) after those ahead of us have charged their rides. The following are links to discussions and commentary regarding the real world aspects of electric driving.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/charging-electric-cars/
Scroll to: Slow Charging Can Suit Solar "The more slowly a car is charged the easier it can be to charge it with solar power. "

https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/67517/portable-solar-panels-for-charging

"I like to backpack into lakes and often the trailhead will be too far (there and back) for the distance of the Tesla 3 (I have ordered) battery pack. Is there some system available with solar panels that I could carry in the car to add battery charge for the amount needed to get to a charging station or home for recharging. If there isn't something already available this might be a good product for Tesla to offer. Thanks for suggestions."
"dortor Posted June 2016
• this has been covered extensive - no portal panels provide enough power to matter - it just won't work
• at 300 watt/hours per-mile you would need a very very substantial system sitting in the sun for many many hours to even add 1-5 miles of range..
• if you're that concerned you're better off carrying a generator and some fuel."

That suggests a PHEV which is entirely suitable for economically wheeling remote terrain.

Pilots have demonstrated that it's possible to fly an aircraft around the globe solely powered by solar energy. Aeronautical engineers also know the limitations of solar powered flight regarding super sonic and combat applications. I welcome Stellantis's efforts to produce an EV for off road applications, but according to research and testimonial, claiming that today it's economical and practical is sheer nonsense, akin to Ford's 1957 Nucleon concept. Ergo, I'm paying no attention to that man behind the curtain.
TLDR.

I get it, it's not for you. Don't buy it.
 

HardSell

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You realize you can charge this at your home over night right?
How did you charge your EV in last night's and last weekend's Texas power outages? All articles claim there's much more to come for all states. Biden is limiting oil exploration and drilling, selling out to Opec. Soon we'll be dependent once again on middle east enemies.
Up 10,000%.jpg

That EV is gonna cost you.
 

HardSell

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and the fan base wont accept electrification.
Has nothing to do with accepting or rejecting electrification. Has everything to do with accepting inconvenient and exorbitantly costly electrification as in, "Why aren't you a fool?"
 

INCRHULK

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Yeah, the grid will grow to meet demand. Except possibly in Texas. It's inevitable, if simply because much of the North American grid is badly out of date. The question becomes do you upgrade and rebuild now when it costs less, and there's a huge demand for infrastructure build-outs, or after it collapses and it will cost a whole lot more in resources and lives.
 

rallydefault

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How did you charge your EV in last night's and last weekend's Texas power outages? All articles claim there's much more to come for all states. Biden is limiting oil exploration and drilling, selling out to Opec. Soon we'll be dependent once again on middle east enemies.
I think you were being serious, but come on. How often has that area seen a storm like this? Once in a lifetime? Not in most people's memories?

Be realistic. You're gonna have crazy stuff happen every now and then that will render certain utilities and resources inaccessible for a time. Writing off an entire power source because of a once-in-a-generation storm is just a step too far.

The future is not with fossil fuels, period. Everybody knows that. There will still be uses for them and plenty of lingering uses for quite some time to come, but oil is not the future and it's wise to start letting off the gas (ha) in that regard while accelerating (double ha) into other prospects.

You are clearly a skeptic and that's fine. So am I. But you gotta drop the hyper emotional speech and non sequiturs or nobody is gonna take you seriously.
 

BCFRJeeper

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GM and most major automakers have made various statements that they all plan on being electric only sales/production by 2030-2035... with the current battery technology I don't see it happening unless they make some serious technological advances soon, same reason why Tesla trucks/Semi are delayed again.
 

INCRHULK

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How did you charge your EV in last night's and last weekend's Texas power outages? All articles claim there's much more to come for all states. Biden is limiting oil exploration and drilling, selling out to Opec. Soon we'll be dependent once again on middle east enemies.
Okay, ignoring the political commentary. Let's dig into the reality of the Texas power outage.

The power outages were caused by a severe winter storm and political dumb-assness dating back to the 30's. That is when the state told FDR to sit and spin on the idea of building out rural electrification. They doubled down on that in the late 90's and mid-'00s by again refusing federal power regulation. Texas was woefully underprepared for an (admittedly rare) storm. Beyond that, they are woefully under-serviced for future usage as projected by their own power authority. More so as climate change creates even more instability.

Had they met Federal power regulations, power plants would have been weatherized, they would have had NatGas reserves to draw on, and would be interconnected with the other NA grids to draw on during the emergency. Most of Texas' thermal generation capacity (coal, oil and gas) was knocked offline because of lack of gas, coal reserves frozen, and substations and distribution switches frozen.

Wind production was actually up VS predicted production, even with turbines frozen. The nuclear plants only provide ~10% of Texas' power. Even at full output, they could not fill demand lost from thermal generation going offline.

Finally, introducing renewables, solar, and wind generation will reduce the dependencies on non-North American fossil fuel production. Wind and Solar generation now cost less to build and run than to purchase coal for coal-fired thermal plants.
 
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Dash68

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Okay, ignoring the political commentary. Let's dig into the reality of the Texas power outage.

The power outages were caused by a severe winter storm and political dumb-assness dating back to the 30's. That is when the state told FDR to sit and spin on the idea of building out rural electrification. They doubled down on that in the late 90's and mid-'00s by again refusing federal power regulation. Texas was woefully underprepared for an (admittedly rare) storm. Beyond that, they are woefully under-serviced for future usage as projected by the own power authority. More so as climate change creates even more instability.

Had they met Federal power regulations, power plants would have been weatherized, they would have had NatGas reserves to draw on, and would be interconnected with the other NA grids to draw on during the emergency. Most of Texas' thermal generation capacity (coal, oil and gas) was knocked offline because of lack of gas, coal reserves frozen, and substations and distribution switches frozen.

Wind production was actually up VS predicted production, even with turbines frozen. The nuclear plants only provide ~10% of Texas' power. Even at full output, they could not fill demand lost from thermal generation going offline.

Finally, introducing renewables, solar, and wind generation will reduce the dependencies on non-North American fossil fuel production. Wind and Solar generation now cost less to build and run than to purchase coal for coal-fired thermal plants.
Interestingly, Germany, which is located in a moderately cold climate, is experiencing blackouts this winter as well and from where I am at in the world, electrical power disruptions seems to be a re-occurring issue in California.

Where I live, the electrical supply is as consistent as it has ever been. We have had shortages of propane and natural gas during the past few years due to infrastructure failures or accidents.

I am not a believer that the world can go 100 percent renewable without some sort of power generating system that currently hasn't been invented yet. It is more likely that we and the world will depend on multiple sources of energy for the foreseeable future regardless of the direction of some of the automotive companies.

You will see more dual fuel systems for heating & powering homes in the future. I currently specify two heating sources in the new homes I design as well as a stand-alone backup supply for electricity and generators are currently being offered to operate on a dual fuel system. This alone is a key indicator of the future consistency of our energy supply.

Not depending on one system or a system that relies on one energy source at the individual level will be the next logical solution to adapting to our ever changing climate, be it shelter or transportation.
 

AnnDee4444

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Finally, introducing renewables, solar, and wind generation will reduce the dependencies on non-North American fossil fuel production. Wind and Solar generation now cost less to build and run than to purchase coal for coal-fired thermal plants.
FWIW: PV Solar actually works better in colder temperatures.

Interestingly, Germany, which is located in a moderately cold climate, is experiencing blackouts this winter as well and from where I am at in the world, electrical power disruptions seems to be a re-occurring issue in California.
California's grid definitely has it's issues, but half of the blackouts are preventative shutdowns due to attempting to not start another fire (like the one that literally burnt down Paradise...)
 

Dash68

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FWIW: PV Solar actually works better in colder temperatures.

I live in a cold climate and pv solar is very limited due to heavy snow in winter and cloud cover much of fall, winter, and spring. My solar array is very productive for about three months a year and useless the rest of the year. There is no way I could depend on solar alone. I would install a wind turbine but the township where I live in doesn't allow it (yet).
 

AnnDee4444

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I live in a cold climate and pv solar is very limited due to heavy snow in winter and cloud cover much of fall, winter, and spring. My solar array is very productive for about three months a year and useless the rest of the year. There is no way I could depend on solar alone. I would install a wind turbine but the township where I live in doesn't allow it (yet).
I think you misunderstood. With all else equal and the only variable being temperature, PV solar will work better when it is colder.

More fun stuff: https://www.nrel.gov/gis/assets/images/solar-annual-ghi-2018-usa-scale-01.jpg
 

Dash68

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