Additional HP?

Kreepin1

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I wasn't talking about engines designed to run it. I was talking about guys who tune their engines for E85 and they are NOT flex fuel engines.

Kevin the Pentastar designer flat out said it would shorten the life of the Pentastar and the context was not a flex fuel engine. I didn't ask him about the flex fuel version because I don't have one. In fact, I didn't ask him about E85 at all. He brought it up as something he would not do to his Pentastar. I'm assuming there there must be people who put it in non-flex fuel engines. So the distinction is that the engine has to be designed for it. But Kevin (the engineer) also said he still wouldn't run it his own Pentastar, even if a flex fuel model. I'll ask him for more detail about why, but he referenced it stripping oil from cylinder walls and being hard on oil.
I am really interested in learning more about the pitfalls of running E85 in a Pentastar. I recently built an engine for my CJ-7 designed to run E-85; 418 cubic inches, 11.5:1 compression, port fuel injection, stainless and Teflon fuel system. It seems like a natural for the 11.2:1 Pentastar and I was planning to get a Livernois tune and run E85. Specifically, I won't be running either of these Jeeps as flex fuel vehicles. It will be straight E85.
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BrntWS6

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So to clarify my point, our Jeep 3.6 engines are NOT flex fuel. E85 will wear them out quicker, according to Kevin. He also said the ESS will accelerate wear, too. Although they do have advanced coatings on the critical parts. He just doesn't trust those coatings yet. He noted he was not involved in the testing.

I'm no chemist, though. I'm only repeating what the experts I know have said and advised.
The 3.6 has all the E85 engine components necessary from the factory. It just does not come with a tune from the factory. I am running E85 in my JL right now with the Livernois PCM.
 

DanW

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The 3.6 has all the E85 engine components necessary from the factory. It just does not come with a tune from the factory. I am running E85 in my JL right now with the Livernois PCM.
Better double check that. Many components in the fuel system are rated for E15. Not E85. And it most certainly wasn't designed.to run it on an aggressive tune. But it is a tough engine, for sure. Overbuilt in several ways.

Not at all something I'd do, because mine has to last a long, long time, but more power to you. Literally, lol.. What kind of warranty coverage did the tuner give you and how much compression and power is it making? Just curious.
 
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Gorilla57

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how much compression and power is it making?
Ummmm.....all JL 3.6 motors are the same compression ratio of 11.3:1 and the tune does nothing to that.....nor can it. Only changing out engine internals can alter compression ratio.

Also, Livernois has many posts on this forum saying what they are making for power on E85.
 

DanW

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Ummmm.....all JL 3.6 motors are the same compression ratio of 11.3:1 and the tune does nothing to that.....nor can it. Only changing out engine internals can alter compression ratio.

Also, Livernois has many posts on this forum saying what they are making for power on E85.
So how much power? And warranty? I'm not familiar with them. Surely if one bought it one would put it on a dyno,. Just curious how much this could get out of the 3.6. It really is a marvelous engine.
 
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BrntWS6

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Better double check that. Many components in the fuel system are rated for E15. Not E85. And it most certainly wasn't designed.to run it on an aggressive tune. But it is a tough engine, for sure. Overbuilt in several ways.

Not at all something I'd do, because mine has to last a long, long time, but more power to you. Literally, lol.. What kind of warranty coverage did the tuner give you and how much compression and power is it making? Just curious.
Yup, I could run E85 in my 2002 Trans Am with a tune. Only thing I may have to change are the injectors and fuel pump for the HP increase since it's already heavily modified. But thousands of guys in the LS1 community have run E85 on stock parts with no problems. Modern engines are fine with it.

The tune is a 50hp increase with E85. If I need to bring it to the dealer I can swap my stock PCM back in.
 

DanW

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Yup, I could run E85 in my 2002 Trans Am with a tune. Only thing I may have to change are the injectors and fuel pump for the HP increase since it's already heavily modified. But thousands of guys in the LS1 community have run E85 on stock parts with no problems. Modern engines are fine with it.

The tune is a 50hp increase with E85. If I need to bring it to the dealer I can swap my stock PCM back in.
I'll be surprised if they could last as long. When I say that I mean 300k and mileage like that. I'm sure they have no issue getting to 100k, maybe further. I could be wrong. I'd love to see one that ran it all the time and got to 150k or more.

But those guys will change cars or do something different with the engines LONG before 100k comes around. It's not the same priority that I have with a daily driver that takes long trips out to the middle of nowhere. For example, I don't think my nephew has even 10k on his Type R before he decided to re-do it and go for more power. He'll rebuild it completely when he does that. New pistons, heads, and more, along with the bigger turbo. Even then, he'll run it at the track and a little around town. No long trips, no commuting, no everyday life.

I won't be selling my Jeep, so long term durability is the priority over horsepower.

And btw, I've seen flex fuel vehicles with well over 200k, such as Tahoes. But they weren't running E85 except on occasion. Mainly, it was not convenient to find, but they also didn't like the reduced fuel economy and power, which is the case without a tune to take advantage of it. I ran it a few tanks in my 2003 Tahoe Flex Fuel 5.3. The gas mileage took a beating and it was noticably down on power. So I quit running it.
 

AnnDee4444

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Ummmm.....all JL 3.6 motors are the same compression ratio of 11.3:1 and the tune does nothing to that.....nor can it. Only changing out engine internals can alter compression ratio.

Also, Livernois has many posts on this forum saying what they are making for power on E85.
Not trying to nit-pick... the static compression ratio can't be altered by a tune, but the effective compression ratio can if the tuner changes any VVT parameters.

I'm in no way an expert, but my understanding is that the cam's overlap is a main determining factor in the effective compression ratio. Change that overlap, and the compression ratio changes with it.

https://www.badasscars.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=68/prd68.htm
 

Gorilla57

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Not trying to nit-pick... the static compression ratio can't be altered by a tune, but the effective compression ratio can if the tuner changes any VVT parameters.

I'm in no way an expert, but my understanding is that the cam's overlap is a main determining factor in the effective compression ratio. Change that overlap, and the compression ratio changes with it.

https://www.badasscars.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=68/prd68.htm
You are correct, but I was talking about static compression ratio for this motor. You can't get above 11.3:1 and that is what the tuner has to keep in mind when dealing with 87, 89, 91, 93, E85. So, even if the effective/dynamic is altered, it will never be above the 11.3:1 that the motor will allow. I'll leave it to the professional tuners to explain more, as I know I'll make a mistake in explaining things.
 
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BrntWS6

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And btw, I've seen flex fuel vehicles with well over 200k, such as Tahoes. But they weren't running E85 except on occasion. Mainly, it was not convenient to find, but they also didn't like the reduced fuel economy and power, which is the case without a tune to take advantage of it. I ran it a few tanks in my 2003 Tahoe Flex Fuel 5.3. The gas mileage took a beating and it was noticably down on power. So I quit running it.
If anything you would gain power on E85. MPG certainly does drop, but if you run premium it can still save you a lot of money. E85 here is $1.20/gal cheaper than 93. Best is to run a couple tanks and see how much your MPG changes. On my DD it only dropped 2.5mpg. But on the JL it went down 4mpg. It also is much more environmentally friendly.

There is no evidence it will hurt your engine or shorten the life of it. There is a lot of bad information out there about it.
 

Zotch

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Not touching the engine.

No need to go faster on a lifted short wheelbase 2 door.

I threw tunes on my GTI's (from reputable companies) where actual gains are noticeable.
 

Zandcwhite

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Not touching the engine.

No need to go faster on a lifted short wheelbase 2 door.

I threw tunes on my GTI's (from reputable companies) where actual gains are noticeable.
The 110hp and 120 ftlbs from a yj was adequate off road if your gearing was right, but a jeep can now be fun to drive on road too. Is it a sports car? Of course not. Do I love that our 4 door on 37's will maintain freeway speed climbing a mountain grade at 10,000ft thanks to the 2.0t? Absolutely. A tune from Diablosport or jb4 (reputable companies) will 100% make actual, noticeable gains, improve highway drive ability, and most importantly turn down the factory torque limiting in 4 Lo which is exactly the time I don't want torque limiting. These jeeps have come a long way, even since the jk days thanks to the 8 speed auto, but are nowhere near too powerful. The 392 JL is coming, so unless you get real crazy with boost or nitrous, you won't ever approach even "factory" power levels out of the pentastar or 2.0t options. Modifying isn't for everyone, but more is better (within reason).
 

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So the manufacturers have the best r&d, and nothing can be improved upon? Why does porting heads make more power then? Ever look at the factory Cherokee 4.0L down pipe with the massive kink in it from the factory? They don’t spend the money on peak performance from the manufacturer ever (and definitely not on a low performance, off road oriented jeep). Mopar themselves sell a cai and free flowing exhaust. The r&d teams factor in things like cost and quiet/ comfort often times more than performance. If you want to pick up a little performance in virtually any stock vehicle, a tune is the most cost effective. Moving air in and/or out of an engine with less restriction will always help. Is it going to be night and day? Hell no. Will it even be noticeable? Maybe not, but let’s not pretend for a second that the factory parts are the pinnacle of performance engineering as they clearly aren’t. Headers for instance have been proven to add measurable power on virtually every engine, and yet manufacturers still run restrictive cast manifolds? Here’s a 3.6L with cat back, cai, tune, and a ported throttle body putting down 331whp, 317 wftlbs. The factory wrangler dynos I’ve seen are about 100hp and 90 ftlbs bellow that. If you think for a second you won’t feel 50% more horsepower, you’re high.
At times dynos read crazy numbers, this one was one of them. Other 3.6 with more mods dyno around 270whp. Unrefined non DI 3.6 does not have in to gain that much power - match what 5.7L puts down to the wheels.
Dyno is a tool to measure your own changes, not to compare to others.

Only thing 3.6 needs is a good tune.
Other modifications altogether will maybe net extra 15 wtq and 15whp (intake, catback exhaust, ported TB, port matched manifold, midpipes), but too much time and money for what you get.

E85 is safe, but its dirty and over prolong time will clog up injectors. So it's best to periodically run 91 octane to clean things up.
 
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DanW

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If anything you would gain power on E85. MPG certainly does drop, but if you run premium it can still save you a lot of money. E85 here is $1.20/gal cheaper than 93. Best is to run a couple tanks and see how much your MPG changes. On my DD it only dropped 2.5mpg. But on the JL it went down 4mpg. It also is much more environmentally friendly.

There is no evidence it will hurt your engine or shorten the life of it. There is a lot of bad information out there about it.
With all due respect, I've heard directly from a former FCA engineer who was on the Pentastar design team and has first hand experience with the evidence? Or from a racing engine builder whose 4 cylinder racing engines own the market and front wheel drive drag racing world record? I think they know exactly what they are talking about. There is one and only one reason to change the oil in a midget car after only 1 feature length race, which might consist of 50 to 70 miles? Even with practice and heat races, you'd be looking at maybe 100 to 150 miles, tops. They both say and agree that the alcohol is hard on oil. And unlike Kevin (the FCA engineer), the race engine builders love E85. He and his chief designer both run it in their Civic Type R cars. Both will tell you that longevity is not their desire, but rather flat out power. They love it and like to show off their cars to customers. But they do not run it in their daily driver SUV's or pickup trucks. If there was no downside, you can bet they would. They work with E85 and other alcohol based (ethanol and methanol) racing fuels almost exclusively. They have vast experience with them.

And yes, my Tahoe lost power on E85. It was noticeably less quick. No difference in normal driving, but I could tell when running it hard. It just wsn't tuned to take advantage of it. It was tuned to get groceries and its fuel system was protected from its corrosive effects. I never dynoed it, though, because I didn't care and didn't have access to one then, anyway. I'm sure a simple tune would have changed things, but I wasn't interested.

Maybe those guys are wrong, but I'm inclined to believe them at this point until someone shows evidence to the contrary.

And one more thing that is well known, although it is not apples to apples, is 2 stroke outboard engines. manufacturers of marine engines lobbied heavily against the bump to E15 from E10. Here is a quote from Mercury Marine, "“Fuel containing higher proportions of ethanol is not compatible with many fuel system and engine components and, if mistakenly used, will cause irreversible damage to these components that will lead to engine failure and potential safety risks.” At this time, we can only warn you about the possibility of confusion and the risk of accidentally filling your boat’s gas tank with E15."

Some of the marine industry's opposition had more to do with ethanol getting saturated with water and causing problems, mainly from condensation from storage. But there were other reasons, particularly with 2 strokes, that they didn't want it. And the 2 stroke reasons most likey were related to what it does to the oil in the fuel. Which supports what Kevin had said about it stripping oil from cylinder walls and being hard on oil.

That doesn't sound like something I want more of in any of my engines, not just marine.

But if you believe it not to have a downside, then why wouldn't you be thrilled to get that stuff into your gas tank ASAP along with a nice tune to bump that Pentastar up? I would, if I believed, a) the JL's fuel system was safe to use with E85, b) the engine was set up for it, and c) I was confident it would not accelerate wear, even if I had to change the oil more frequently.
 
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BrntWS6

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But if you believe it not to have a downside, then why wouldn't you be thrilled to get that stuff into your gas tank ASAP along with a nice tune to bump that Pentastar up? I would, if I believed, a) the JL's fuel system was safe to use with E85, b) the engine was set up for it, and c) I was confident it would not accelerate wear, even if I had to change the oil more frequently.
I feel we may be talking about two different things at times. Alcohol (methonal) and E85.

I don't pretend do know how manufacturers tune their flex fuel cars. But generally speaking you should not lose power with E85. That's one of the main reasons people use it, to get more power. Not saying you did not lose power, I will take your word on it, but that is not the norm at all.

The marine study also said they need to do more testing all around.

"Results are based on a sample population of one engine per test fuel. As such, these results are not considered statistically significant, but may serve as an indicator of potential issues. More testing would be required to better understand the potential effects of E15."

What is also interesting is every engine experienced a lean condition. Tells me they did not tune it for E15.

"The E15 engine exhibited variability of HC emissions at idle during end-of-endurance emissions tests, which
was likely caused by lean misfire."

I am new to E85, still learning. But all the guys I talk to do regular oil changes, no different than using regular gas. This is not just visual based, many have done oil analysis.

Also as long as your fuel cap is good and tight there is no issue with condensation in the tank.
 
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