6.4L Hemi Swap w/ + Manual Transmission info gathering/ discussion thread

[RubiSc0tt]

While we wait for pricing and details on the 392 Rubi I figured maybe we could start a discussion on this. It's something I've started asking myself (YES, AGAIN).

Before we start, let's set some ground rules for the thread (if possible):
-Info/discussion only for a 6.4L Hemi Swap with a manual transmission. This isn't a thread to debate LS vs. Hemi, 5.7 vs. 6.4, Manual vs. Auto, Turbo 6 vs. Supercharger vs. 6.4L, and not really geared toward doing a hellcat swap, either.

-I realize there are shops out there, however- I'm looking at a scenario where one would be doing most of the work themselves, in their garage, in the most basic and achievable way possible. This is the research, gathering of parts that would fit the application, and any sort of hang ups that you may encounter.

-Not only looking to find out the COST of the options, but what possibilities are out there for anyone else considering this to build their current JL into something similar to the 392, just with a manual transmission

With that out of the way, here it is:
How would one go about swapping a 6.4LHemi V8 into a JLR/JLUR, with a manual transmission behind it?

My JL is a daily driver that I take wheeling on the weekends and for family road trips. Ideally I'd run 37's and a 2-3" lift. I keep a pretty light foot on the street and the trail (mostly a crawler), but I do like running difficult trails in the Northeast. Any sort of full throttle hijinx would be minimal.

I've been doing some of my own research (BECAUSE REASONS. FOR SCIENCE). If I wanted V8 power, and a manual transmission, it looks like the route that makes the most sense to me would be:

-Buy a Donor engine off ebay (Lots of 6.4's w/ start up videos to verify from online Auto wrecking yards)
-Buy a kit from Dakota Customs (I realize these are for Auto Trans, but for this application you'd be using all the parts for relocation of stuff in the engine bay)
-Buy a manual transmission (would likely need 600hp rating)
-Exhaust needed
-Upgrade to 1 piece driveshafts
-Upgrade to Chromoly axle shafts and forged gears front/ rear.

Engine options: most 6.4L's I've found are out of Chargers/ Challengers, with a few GC SRT's and PowerWagon options out there. The mileage ranges from 7k-50+k. Pricing is fairly consistent within the $8-9K+ shipping range and most of them offer Youtube verified start up vids, with a warranty from the supplier.

Manual Transmission options: So far, I've found only a few off road oriented manual transmission options:
Getrag 238- Apparently these are getting rarer, because they've been discontinued?
TR4050- 5 speed, but seems like a good option
TR6060 (4x4)- I've been told the regular TR6060 has terrible ratios. I was not able to confirm on the 4x4 version I found as they weren't listed but that doesn't exactly leave me hopeful.
NV4500- I've been told this will not fit. I do not know why, though.

Would anything be needed to make the Manual trans work with the V8 if it was from a manual car?

Would the axle shafts/ gears hold up to Hemi power with reasonable driving?

Would any sort of frame upgrades need to be made? they did this on the 392 but I do not recall seeing it mentioned on any Hemi Swapped JL's.

Has anyone already done this? If so, please share. I know America's Most Wanted 4x4 mentioned they did a JT 6.4 Swap with a Manual trans a few months ago on the Truck show Podcast, but I haven't seen or heard any additional info, so I'd guess they're still testing?

Anyway, discuss.

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[AZDustMuncher]

I’d wait until they start making the hemi jeeps and hopefully these companies selling these swaps will have to lower their prices.

 

[Kevin Mojito]

The reason FCA went with auto, torque management. That's the only way to make the dana 44 hold it. You go to manual trans, no TM or hydro coupling ( torque converter. ) Bye Bye 44's.
I have the older 5.7 with auto in my TJ. I did go 60 in the rear. You can feel the Hemi give up the power at shift points ( T.M.) Newer stuff has much better timing, so you do not feel as much trim.
So, if you are going to 450-500 foot pound of torque.......... Dana 60's plus 1350 or bigger u-joints. Or keep it on the street.

 

[RubiSc0tt]

I’d wait until they start making the hemi jeeps and hopefully these companies selling these swaps will have to lower their prices.

I was hoping for this as well, but when asked, several shops basically said "not happening lol". they'll keep offering the swap, but they'll offer other swaps and keep charging. When you think about it, it makes sense- they set the rate for their work, it's a custom engine swap, and there are other options not offered by Jeep (Hellcat, 5.7, etc etc etc). They may see less 6.4 installs, but more of the others. Would be nice to see at least one of them put up details on a manual transmission 6.4L JL swap, but I understand why a lot of them aren't taking that on, just yet.
I'm also hearing rumors of $75-80k pricing from a few people in Jeep FB groups who ordered, and supposedly each dealer is only getting 5 allocated of the 392's, so that will likely not help any of the price dropping/ supply& demand from the shops.

The reason FCA went with auto, torque management. That's the only way to make the dana 44 hold it. You go to manual trans, no TM or hydro coupling ( torque converter. ) Bye Bye 44's.
I have the older 5.7 with auto in my TJ. I did go 60 in the rear. You can feel the Hemi give up the power at shift points ( T.M.) Newer stuff has much better timing, so you do not feel as much trim.
So, if you are going to 450-500 foot pound of torque.......... Dana 60's plus 1350 or bigger u-joints. Or keep it on the street.

Interesting. So then the 6.4L is definitely good for more and likely does NEED the bigger axles.
I get the "why" of why they did what they did on the 392, and the "how".
Part of this thread is finding the "What" info on "How" to make this work with a 6.4L AND a manual transmission- because ideally, that is what I would want.

To be honest, the 392 is a bit of a technical marvel, and that is what appeals to me, but I'm also looking at that "what/why" of the decisions made with the build of the 392 and trying to decide if it's smart enough for me and would actually live under my use- simply put: If I have to spend $70k to get that Jeep, and then another $8-10k in axles just to make it work reliably with 37's on the trail, I might as well just keep mine and start plotting out a build.

 

[Kevin Mojito]

In 2005-6 I sent my TJ to AEV, as they were the only ones making the harness and integrating the electronics. They did the swap ( labor, mounts, exhaust ), I had motor/trans. It still was over $15K back then for their part. To do it today..... crazy $$$$ unless you can do it all.

 

[RubiSc0tt]

In 2005-6 I sent my TJ to AEV, as they were the only ones making the harness and integrating the electronics. They did the swap ( labor, mounts, exhaust ), I had motor/trans. It still was over $15K back then for their part. To do it today..... crazy $$$$ unless you can do it all.

I vaguely remember seeing the prices as I was pipe-dreaming with my old TJ. It's still crazy money.

I consider myself a fairly competent wrench. I can do majority of stuff on my Jeep (bolt in, light fabrication, etc), pretty much the only things I'm not comfortable with is tearing apart and rebuilding an engine/ transmission/ axles& gearing. That said, I'd give it a shot if it wasn't a daily driver and i have my own garage space- that's just how I have always worked. That's kind of why I've started asking these questions and I'm looking for any sort of input on this conversion. I've watched a handful of conversion videos and read a bunch of stuff- it seems doable, by anyone with the time and a little experience. there are some tricky parts (relocation of steering box, some of the other stuff, welding brackets, changing input shafts? etc); the kits have made things A LOT easier from what I gather, but it's still a lot of work and some figuring out.

So- for arguments sake- let's say we swap out axles. Would I do BOTH front and rear?? Or does it only need to be rear? I would guess both?

What did you do in your TJ?

(But really: I guess the bigger question is: Is it just worth it to just pony up and buy the 392? That will require some math)

 

[RubiSc0tt]

Just for the hell of it, I checked out what a set of Ultimate D60's would run me:
$17304.75 w/ free shipping
includes:
Extension E-brake Cables for UD60
JL
+$10.00

NONE
You are not required to select a part from this category in order to complete your kit.
$0.00
INCLUDED IN PRICE
U Joint strap kit $11.46
2x Dana Spicer U-Joint Strap Kit

https://www.northridge4x4.com/#
BUNDLE ASSEMBLY OPTIONS

FREE Set of Wheels
5 x ATX Wheels AX756 Beadlock SLAB Wheel 17x9 8x6.5

Front Axle $9,199.99
1 x Dana Ultimate 60 Front Axle w/E-Locker 4.10 Ratio - Includes Brakes - JT/JL

Rear Axle $5,649.99
1 x Dana Ultimate 60 Rear Axle w/E-Locker 4.10 Ratio - Includes Brakes - JL

Front Driveshaft $639.95
1 x Adams Driveshaft Front 1350 CV Driveshaft with Ultimate 60s - JT/JL

Product will ship from manufacturer, average time to ship: 2 business days
Rear Driveshaft $669.95
1 x Adams Driveshaft Rear 1350 CV Driveshaft with Ultimate 60s - JL 4dr

Product will ship from manufacturer, average time to ship: 2 business days
E-Brake Cables $90.00
2 x E-Brake Cable for UD60, LR - JL

Tie Rod $424.99
1 x Steer Smarts Yeti Extreme Tie Rod Assembly - JK

https://www.northridge4x4.com/#

Tie Rod Clamp $95.99
1 x Steer Smarts Yeti XD Flex Damper Bracket - JT/JL/JK

https://www.northridge4x4.com/#
Drag Link $424.99
1 x Steer Smarts Yeti Extreme Bottom Mount Draglink - JK
SSS78064001

https://www.northridge4x4.com/#
Wiring Harness $123.44
2 x Dana Spicer E-Locker Harness

https://www.northridge4x4.com/#

Brake Hardware $10.00
1 x Extension E-brake Cables for UD60 - JL

Product will ship from manufacturer, average time to ship: 30 business days

Worth mentioning: this stuff is all upgraded on the 392- and if it isn't it probably should be upgraded on a 6.4L Swap (based on intended use and previous conversation). So, add that into the equation. Keep in mind, this is just me guessing off the cuff. I could need more/less.

Short Math:
Engine: $9k off ebay
Trans: $4k (Tremec 6060 $2600 remanned on ebay, w/ 4wd Conversion $450 plate, changing internals for better ratios possibly? )
Kit: $10.5k
Axles (and driveshafts/wheels): $17340.75
Total: $40,840.75

I could be off, but that's kinda crazy. And not counting any sort of odds and ends you may need. It's not even counting the price of the Jeep. Oh, and you're still doing ALL the work.

 

[RubiSc0tt]

So, interesting enough... I checked out RubiTrux website and at the very bottom it says:
Available for 3.6L JLs & JTs with automatic transmission only at this advertised price. Conversions for the 2.0L turbo platform are available as well as conversions for manual transmission (limited quantity) vehicles - Contact [email protected] for pricing on these conversions. No conversion available for RHD vehicles at the current time.

So, there's one shop that does it, but not at the $35k advertised price. So I'm guessing it is more labor intensive or complicated.

 

[5280Sapper]

waste of time for a manual.. if you like doing burnouts and donuts fine.. but anything else pointless. 8 speed auto is stronger and better for cruising.. and you only have 2 legs. 6060 would be the only real choice.. custom built if you want different ratios, an adapter for the trans to t case not cheap. so many computers intertwined in the JL running a manual probably isn't an option. for what you do and want out of it you bought the wrong vehicle.

 

[RubiSc0tt]

waste of time for a manual.. if you like doing burnouts and donuts fine.. but anything else pointless. 8 speed auto is stronger and better for cruising.. and you only have 2 legs. 6060 would be the only real choice.. custom built if you want different ratios, an adapter for the trans to t case not cheap. so many computers intertwined in the JL running a manual probably isn't an option. for what you do and want out of it you bought the wrong vehicle.

Thanks for your opinion. I appreciate the input. but:

Before we start, let's set some ground rules for the thread (if possible):
-Info/discussion only for a 6.4L Hemi Swap with a manual transmission. This isn't a thread to debate LS vs. Hemi, 5.7 vs. 6.4, Manual vs. Auto, Turbo 6 vs. Supercharger vs. 6.4L, and not really geared toward doing a hellcat swap, either.

-Not only looking to find out the COST of the options, but what possibilities are out there for anyone else considering this to build their current JL into something similar to the 392, just with a manual transmission

I've been driving stick on the trail since 2003, run some fairly technical trails with far less capable builds, and I've never had an issue. I prefer driving manual trans, and if it's possible to V8 swap and retain that, I would prefer that as well. I realize it's not EASY- but to me, it would be worth the extra work. Cost/Benefit analysis and uptime vs. downtime is a totally different discussion altogether that we aren't addressing here because it's highly subjective based on the user.

Rather than let this degenerate into another Manual vs. Auto pissing match, let me redirect:
Why do you say the T6060 is the only option? Genuinely curious. Is it a fitment issue?
AMW4x4 mentioned they were using a Getrag238 in the JT they 6.4 Swapped. I've seen LOTS of older rigs in mags with V8/ Diesel swaps with an NV4500. I've seen people say "NV4500 won't fit" but there are are adapters for almost anything out there, and if not usually a machine shop can do something for you. That leads me to wonder if it is too tall, i.e. you'd have to modify the transmission tunnel.

 

[AnnDee4444]

I built a spreadsheet that compares the torque at the axle vs. engine RPM, using data that I acquired from here (which I'm sure isn't 100% accurate, but it's better than nothing).

I bet the Dana 44 axle shafts would be OK if you never went WOT in first gear or reverse (not sure about the ring & pinion though). The 6.4's 2nd gear would output about the same as the 3.6 in first. Also would probably require using the 2.7:1 transfer case like the 392.

Solid line = 6.4 (using JL ratios, T6060's are different), Sport/Sahara transfer case, 4.10 differential
Dashed line = 3.6 Rubicon

High range:

Low Range:

 

[RubiSc0tt]

@AnnDee4444 That's awesome info. Thank you for you contribution!

I've returned to thinking about this in my spare time. Probably the only point to consider this swap is
A). To help with running big tires (40's)
B). Because you can. because it's what you want.

Likewise, thinking more about this and the more I look at it, the more it seems to make sense you do this in phases:
Axles first, while you hunt for the rest of the parts. Give it a season or two. Then start ordering the engine, transmission, Swap kit, etc. Once all parts are in, and you're ready: hit it that winter.

This might be a bit of a "Well, no shit" statement but this kind of swap has been a pipe dream for a while now; I've never actually researched what goes into it. Of course, this is provided you're actually doing it yourself. I've talked to one user who has done this swap on several different JKU's (except Auto Trans) and his opinion: For the cost/ savings, it really is worth taking it to a shop. Once again, food for thought.

 

[Rogues Gambit]

Now I'm not an expert, but maybe reach out to AEV, since I know they made manual 6.4 Brute Double Cabs before, and then there's this as well

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-n...of-wrangler-jk-brute-double-cab-ar175955.html, " AEV will even swap in the mighty 6.4-liter Hemi V-8 with the Wrangler’s six-speed manual transmission."

 

[RubiSc0tt]

Now I'm not an expert, but maybe reach out to AEV, since I know they made manual 6.4 Brute Double Cabs before, and then there's this as well

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-n...of-wrangler-jk-brute-double-cab-ar175955.html, " AEV will even swap in the mighty 6.4-liter Hemi V-8 with the Wrangler’s six-speed manual transmission."

Thanks! I knew their 6.4L Hemi manual conversions used the Getrag238- I wasn't sure about the rest.
I'm not swapping right now or anytime soon; Right now it's in the exploratory phase for maybe 5+ years down the road. Honestly, it all depends on where I am at that point. IF it makes sense to have a shop do it for me, it would probably be later phase AND install/ make the engine (and related bits) work. If I'm going all in, then at that point I would at least hope to already have some UD60's under the Jeep. So far i've found 3 shops seem to offer it, and have a reputation for it, plus one more that's possible: AEV, America's Most Wanted 4x4, RubiTrux, and (maybe) Dakota Customs, respectively.

 

[Rogues Gambit]

Thanks! I knew their 6.4L Hemi manual conversions used the Getrag238- I wasn't sure about the rest.
I'm not swapping right now or anytime soon; Right now it's in the exploratory phase for maybe 5+ years down the road. Honestly, it all depends on where I am at that point. IF it makes sense to have a shop do it for me, it would probably be later phase AND install/ make the engine (and related bits) work. If I'm going all in, then at that point I would at least hope to already have some UD60's under the Jeep. So far i've found 3 shops seem to offer it, and have a reputation for it, plus one more that's possible: AEV, America's Most Wanted 4x4, RubiTrux, and (maybe) Dakota Customs, respectively.

Gotcha.

Yeah, I mean, not even there myself, but if I were, I'd wanna do what you're doing as well

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