53.6 MPG in a Wrangler 4XE?!?!

[Newbie 4xe]

if I recharge every night my range could be thousands of miles between fill ups.

Funny you should say that... I just logged my first 1,000 miles and have not yet been to the gas station.

I picked up my 4xe from the dealership the evening of April 3. I hit exactly 1,000 miles on my odometer as I pulled in to my garage after the last trip of the night on May 1. I’m a fairly standard driver of around 15k miles/year. That normally includes a few annual road trips.

I plug in for free when I am at work, and pay $0.13/kWh for electricity when I plug in at home every night (See earlier posts for details).

Stats:
798 electric miles
202 hybrid miles
...with 3/8 tank of gas from the initial dealership fill-up remaining.

The longest trip I’ve taken so far was for a local soccer game (40 miles each way using hybrid for the entire trip).

With VERY rough numbers, my costs are equivalent to better than 32 mpg — even assuming I’m paying for ALL electricity charges (which I’m not).

I’m using very conservatIve estimates. If anything, I’m actually doing significantly better than 32mpg. I can bore you with the methodology of this if you’re interested. It’s fairly straightforward, but takes several steps.

I will be tracking actual kWh charging — and an actual fill-up, once I need gas — over the next 1,000 miles so I can provide more accurate info.

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[Skeethree]

With a little careful driving yesterday I was able to get just over 28 mpg after the battery hit 1%. Trip was only 19 miles, ran on electricity for about 3 of them. We’ve seen MPGe as high as 60 when battery only, and note that number goes up and down with acceleration just like gasoline use. I guess if a gallon of gas is equal to roughly 37 k/w hrs, the math works with 16 useful k/w in the battery and 26 mile+ range.

 

[Roverhi]

A couple days ago I posted mileage with gas and electricity driving from VT to NJ in our JLURe A few more observations since then:

1) It's easy to go more than 21 miles electric only on flat NJ roads. Two full recharges netted 26 and 28 miles before ICE kicked in. Could have done 30 without today's headwinds.

2) The mpg figures on the dash are not particularly useful unless you use one for electric use (usually 46-54 mpge) and one for gasoline only once your hybrid battery drops to <1%. Gasoline only use so far averages about 24-26 mpg, pretty decent considering it only runs on electricity about 5-10% of the time based on regeneration. I expect Sahara models could add one or two mpg to that number, our numbers are based on local use, 25-45 miles per hour.

3) The mpg figure on the left side of the center screen is overall mpg, it goes up when running electricity and down with gasoline. It can only be reset from the energy screen on the dash.

4) The mpg figures become less useful through multiple recharges. They are really just a reflection of how many times/how often you recharge. Same thing with range, if I recharge every night my range could be thousands of miles between fill ups. It's not possible to compare mileage to other 4xe's.

The important thing to know is that your gasoline only mpg will likely be 20-26 mpg depending on whether or not you beat on your Jeep (I am seeing some 15 mpg posts out there but don't understand how they can be that bad) and that you can drive 25 miles or so on electricity that should cost less than a gallon of gas. We get ours from rooftop solar panels so it's free.

Other than that, the ride is great, the steering is much better than the JLUR we traded, and I'll get that $7500 back as a tax credit next year. So far, the 4xe is the most advanced and best Jeep ever, hope everyone has the same experience, and that it only improves after break-in. Tomorrow we'll try the beach.

On the other hand if you sign up for free nights/weekends energy plans, you really can get your shit for free. I pay 18cents pkwh for days and 0 for nights.

 

[Roverhi]

To get full battery charge you need to put something over 16KW of electricity back into a 1% charged battery is what I understand. To figure actual fuel costs you would need to multiply say 17kw times the cost per kwh of the electricity. Our KWH costs are among the highest in the country at $0.35kwh. If my figuring is correct that would be $5.95 to recharge an almost completely discharged battery. With gas at $3.60 a gallon would make it almost twice as expensive to use the hybrid or electric mode in 4xE rather than just driving on straight gasoline.

Would someone check my reasoning and math to see if my figuring is correct. If it is, the only reason to buy a 4xE is the Federal income tax credit and/or the cheapest way to get all that torque and hp.

 

[Shasta_Steve]

To get full battery charge you need to put something over 16KW of electricity back into a 1% charged battery is what I understand. To figure actual fuel costs you would need to multiply say 17kw times the cost per kwh of the electricity. Our KWH costs are among the highest in the country at $0.35kwh. If my figuring is correct that would be $5.95 to recharge an almost completely discharged battery. With gas at $3.60 a gallon would make it almost twice as expensive to use the hybrid or electric mode in 4xE rather than just driving on straight gasoline.

Would someone check my reasoning and math to see if my figuring is correct. If it is, the only reason to buy a 4xE is the Federal income tax credit.

Sounds about right. I think the decision to buy an "electric" vehicle is pretty much different for everyone. For me we get a very good rate, for California anyway, if we charge at night. I have not really seen any free charging stations and the ones I have seen are all way more expensive than gas. The cheapest charging station I have seen so far is 25 cents a kw from our local utility.

At 35 cents sounds like it might be time to invest in solar.

 

[Geesmill]

So any power you use in the evening is free?? Our PUC doesnt allow that and for good reason, nothing is free, someone else is paying. So any business could work off shift evenings and never pay any electric costs? Reason why our PUC never allows that time of rate use.

Thill44

Why dont you be our test bed. next week charge your battery( Can even use one of those "free" locations ), but only once. then please go fill up and zero out the odometer on B. then drive the next week or so, but no plugging in, drive in Hybrid mode. thenfill up again and report "gallons" used and actual miles drive and hence MPG, so one can see what the actual increase versus a std Wrangler is. I bet a delta of a 2mpg at best. No one on here seems to know how to run a controlled test, and hasnt reported back on this.

Unfortunately, all utilities will be going to a Time of Use model. As more baseload power is retired electricity will get even more expensive when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing. I use to buy/sell energy and electricity prices are fickle. My suggestion for those with a plug in is to install solar. In this market we can choose between Time of Use and the standard tariff. TOU is 6 cents a kWh off peak, but when we put solar on the house we went back to the standard tariff, so all the energy we put back in during the day, gets booked and we can use it in the evening.

Just know that while you read big stories about renewables being ultra-low price the energy still has to get to the load centers. So as the utilities get the PUC to approve additional transmission line facilities ratepayers are going to end up paying.

 

[Geesmill]

Yep. This isn't even rare in TX. Reliant, GreenMountain, DirectEnergy, PaylessPower all offer it. I'm not sure if they offer it for businesses, obviously. And no, it's free, no one else is paying for it. Electricity companies offer it because they have reduced load and wasted power at nights. I pay a higher rate for my energy usage in the day (18c/kwh) in exchange for my free nights. I 'pay' for it, but since I'm paying less overall, I don't really pay for it. I would argue that's free, but you can be pedantic about it if you'd like.
Shifting demand to times where they have wasted energy (when businesses aren't running) helps reduce stress and utilizes a free resource they are wasting (excess production they can't shut down and restart every night). Your quasi-political criticisms are a bit baseless and not what I was hoping to run into on a jeep forum.

The energy is really never wasted, the system load is just lower, so the balancing authorities have to back the generators down. Electrical system operations is rather interesting. The load is balanced to generation on a second to second basis. As more businesses and factories close for the day, turn off lights, and unplug their cars the system load drops and generators need to back down. The reason utilities offer reduced rates during off peak times is to encourage load shifting, so the plants can run at a higher efficiency and not require taking the units offline.

 

[Ratiogear]

The energy is really never wasted, the system load is just lower, so the balancing authorities have to back the generators down. Electrical system operations is rather interesting. The load is balanced to generation on a second to second basis. As more businesses and factories close for the day, turn off lights, and unplug their cars the system load drops and generators need to back down. The reason utilities offer reduced rates during off peak times is to encourage load shifting, so the plants can run at a higher efficiency and not require taking the units offline.

Thanks for clarification. Main point still stands though, right? If almost every energy company in TX is offering free nights/weekend plans, it must be economical for them to do so, and almost comical caricature complaints about "NOTHING IS FREE" don't really have a leg to stand on?

 

[Shasta_Steve]

Unfortunately, all utilities will be going to a Time of Use model. As more baseload power is retired electricity will get even more expensive when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing. I use to buy/sell energy and electricity prices are fickle. My suggestion for those with a plug in is to install solar. In this market we can choose between Time of Use and the standard tariff. TOU is 6 cents a kWh off peak, but when we put solar on the house we went back to the standard tariff, so all the energy we put back in during the day, gets booked and we can use it in the evening.

Just know that while you read big stories about renewables being ultra-low price the energy still has to get to the load centers. So as the utilities get the PUC to approve additional transmission line facilities ratepayers are going to end up paying.

I am sitting in the control room of a natural gas power plant right now. Things are going to get interesting the next few years. Wind and solar are coming but right now they are causing some serious disruptions in the system.

One of our problems here in California right now is we have a lot of solar. Problem is solar dies about the same time everyone is going home and firing up their AC units in the summer. Since electricity is not, for any practical purpose right now stored, we spend a lot of time chasing load. The big problem with that is we often have to operate in very inefficient manners to supply the grid. Peaking units are not nearly as efficient. Starting and stopping plants causes much more pollution than just keeping them up.

I am not anti renewables but I do think there questions that need to be answered. One thing I would like to see here, is that to get the government tax advantages for solar, you should have battery backup. Might be able to keep the grid from getting hammered quite so much.

Our utility is planning a major move to carbon free energy but listening to the meetings they are still far from sure how they are going to do it. I know it is coming but I believe it is going to get really expensive in the short term. Just not sure how much to people will take.

 

[Shasta_Steve]

Thanks for clarification. Main point still stands though, right? If almost every energy company in TX is offering free nights/weekend plans, it must be economical for them to do so, and almost comical caricature complaints about "NOTHING IS FREE" don't really have a leg to stand on?

It is economical for them to do so only because they don't have much of a choice and they are getting massive government subsidies. Someday batteries will be a reality but for now the government allows them to operate very inefficiently.

I used to operate what were at the time the two largest solar thermal plants in the world. We made huge profits because we were getting $500+ a MW during the summer. Still good money off peak. The cost for a gas plant at the time was about $60 a MW.

There are no free lunches. Just depends on who is paying for it.

 

[Ratiogear]

It is economical for them to do so only because they don't have much of a choice and they are getting massive government subsidies. Someday batteries will be a reality but for now the government allows them to operate very inefficiently.

I used to operate what were at the time the two largest solar thermal plants in the world. We made huge profits because we were getting $500+ a MW during the summer. Still good money off peak. The cost for a gas plant at the time was about $60 a MW.

There are no free lunches. Just depends on who is paying for it.

Sure. But me choosing the free nights and weekends plan doesn't make anyone buy my free lunch. Someone is buying this free lunch (and if it's federal support, then I'm buying this free lunch) and setting that free lunch out. If I then take advantage of the free lunch, we've come full circle. So the 'someone is paying for it' criticisms seem short sighted in a different visage.

 

[Thill444]

My wife was a lobbyist on Capital Hill for many years. Most Americans do not realize the huge tax breaks and tax deferrals big companies get. And big oil is one of the biggest beneficiaries of these breaks. People that complain about the renewal energy industry giving out tax breaks and incentives need to recognize that this is nothing new. I’m not a tree hugger. I like to do my part, we switched to all LED lightbulbs, we replaced a very inefficient heating system with a high efficiency gas system. We use smart home software to better control lights, and heating/AC. We decided on a Pacifica Hybrid vs another Honda Odyssey. We sold our 16mpg Wrangler for a 4xe.

But I also have a C8 Corvette on order and I like to go to the track sometimes. So I’m far from some crazy tree hugger, but I also try to do better. I’m definitely considering solar panels and Tesla wall type technology when it makes economical sense to do so.

 

[Geesmill]

I am sitting in the control room of a natural gas power plant right now. Things are going to get interesting the next few years. Wind and solar are coming but right now they are causing some serious disruptions in the system.

One of our problems here in California right now is we have a lot of solar. Problem is solar dies about the same time everyone is going home and firing up their AC units in the summer. Since electricity is not, for any practical purpose right now stored, we spend a lot of time chasing load. The big problem with that is we often have to operate in very inefficient manners to supply the grid. Peaking units are not nearly as efficient. Starting and stopping plants causes much more pollution than just keeping them up.

I am not anti renewables but I do think there questions that need to be answered. One thing I would like to see here, is that to get the government tax advantages for solar, you should have battery backup. Might be able to keep the grid from getting hammered quite so much.

Our utility is planning a major move to carbon free energy but listening to the meetings they are still far from sure how they are going to do it. I know it is coming but I believe it is going to get really expensive in the short term. Just not sure how much to people will take.

I totally agree. I worked for a utility in the Puget Sound area and we entered the CAISO energy imbalance market and made good money. When I would tell people about negative pricing and how Cal ISO was paying us to take energy during the day people were confused. Then as the sun was going down and people were headed home we would turn around and send energy back down those 500kV lines from Washington down into Oregon and California. That evening ramp is scary down in your neck of the woods.

I was on the desk the day of the San Diego blackout. I expect we will see a lot more of that in the future. I have a generator and I'm going to do battery storage because I envision a day when people have to cut the cord because the base rate charges get ridiculous. Our area here just instituted demand charges for consumers. Talk about confusing the hell out of Joe Consumer.

 

[Geesmill]

My wife was a lobbyist on Capital Hill for many years. Most Americans do not realize the huge tax breaks and tax deferrals big companies get. And big oil is one of the biggest beneficiaries of these breaks. People that complain about the renewal energy industry giving out tax breaks and incentives need to recognize that this is nothing new. I’m not a tree hugger. I like to do my part, we switched to all LED lightbulbs, we replaced a very inefficient heating system with a high efficiency gas system. We use smart home software to better control lights, and heating/AC. We decided on a Pacifica Hybrid vs another Honda Odyssey. We sold our 16mpg Wrangler for a 4xe.

But I also have a C8 Corvette on order and I like to go to the track sometimes. So I’m far from some crazy tree hugger, but I also try to do better. I’m definitely considering solar panels and Tesla wall type technology when it makes economical sense to do so.

The battery storage prices will drop, eventually. It will definitely make things easier on grid operators if battery storage can be drawn on and used as a dispatchable resource. At some point I envision battery containers at most substations to soak up energy during low price periods and then released back on the grid when the sun goes down and the wind stops blowing. It all comes down to cost. Many can barely pay their energy bills presently and with all the additional investment in infrastructure and inflation (weakening of the dollar) I don't see rates going anywhere put up. At some point battery technology will get to the point where people can cut the cord and then the death spiral for the electric utilities speeds up considerably.

 

[Sboden]

I find it interesting I show 24 miles available with electric in a Rubicon when fully charged.

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