53.6 MPG in a Wrangler 4XE?!?!

phobos512

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I could either install a Sense whole-house power meter or replace my EVSE with a ChargePoint. I'll do one or the other at some point.
That won't give you how much actually goes into the battery though, unless you can figure out the charge efficiency. Then there's the actual motor efficiency. I think you should just hack your Jeep up and add some current and voltage monitors at the motor cables. You know, for science. The Greater Good (TM).
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digimark

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As much as they appear to be reviled by JL/JT people, the Prius and hybrid Corolla we own regularly get 55-60MPG on mostly highway driving, vs the 31/40 the gas version Corolla gets with each having tiny non-plug-in hybrid batteries. I'd expect the same thing in the 4xe -- ignoring the A-pillar charging port and just leaving it on hybrid mode I'd expect at least 40MPG over the time it takes to drain the tank and refill.
 
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Interesting that MPG displayed there is actually showing MPGe. I guess that’s a good way to train people to think about the vehicle in terms of MPGe. Does it show you the amount of gallons of gas used? That would allow a quick calculation of MPG (with no consideration for electrical energy used).
No, that's not what MPGE is. MPGE is a rating.
 

jdeolivares

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MPGe is essentially a measure of the efficiency of the electric drive train on a vehicle. They could easily of just called it MPKw-hr. It's only useful to compare with other vehicles with electric drive trains. Besides that it, is essentially meaningless.


There are two potential benefits of electric/hybrid vehicles. Lower cost and lower emissions per mile driven.

I ordered the 4xe because:
1) it will cost less per mile than the gas only Wrangler
2) Costs less than a comparably equipped gas only Wrangler because of the $7500 tax credit
3) It is fun to drive and has all the high tech stuff I like. (Apple play, Adaptive cruise control, GPS, auto wipers and high beams, etc.)
4) Can get me safely to the mountains in the winter snow
5) Can go off road for fun.
6) Its the iconic Jeep

My cost per mile driven should be less because I can commute to work and around town using only electric propulsion and I can charge it up for free at work. Also, the cost per mile for electricity charging at home will be less than using gasoline which is now $3.60 a gallon and rising in CA.

So after all that the only number I want to know is cost per mile driven. I compute how many miles I drove divided by the gallons of gas consumed times the price per gallon, plus my electric cost for the electricity I used and paid for charging at home. I am quite sure this will be less than a gas only Wrangler.
 

jdeolivares

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Yes. I agree that would be useful to know. Its easy to find out. Drive until the battery is <1%. Don't charge it back up. Drive some combination of city and highway. Record how many miles you drove and how much gasoline you used and compute your MPG. Try with max regen on and off. As soon as I get mine delivered I will try it.
 

GT2529

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No, that's not what MPGE is. MPGE is a rating.
MPGe can be used as a measure of efficiency on a trip just like MPG, though. The vehicle won't always get the same electrical consumption per 100 miles on each drive. If you go up a steep hill, using both electricity and gas, MPGe will drop way down because the amount of Kwh used on that trip will be greater than the sticker rating. Seeing your dash trip reader say 53 mpg, with no gas used, makes me think it is an MPGe measurement instead of MPG, but Jeep labeled as MPG which is super confusing. Otherwise it would say 99+ MPG if it was truly just miles per gallon on no gas used.
 

phobos512

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MPGe can be used as a measure of efficiency on a trip just like MPG, though. The vehicle won't always get the same electrical consumption per 100 miles on each drive. If you go up a steep hill, using both electricity and gas, MPGe will drop way down because the amount of Kwh used on that trip will be greater than the sticker rating. Seeing your dash trip reader say 53 mpg, with no gas used, makes me think it is an MPGe measurement instead of MPG, but Jeep labeled as MPG which is super confusing. Otherwise it would say 99+ MPG if it was truly just miles per gallon on no gas used.
No. No no no. Nooooooooo.

You are wrong. MPGe is only a rating of how efficient the vehicle is when using it's battery. It means nothing about how far you can go. It's go to do with motor efficiency and aerodynamics. Teslas have high MPGe because they have very efficient electric motors and are more aerodynamic (they are rated over 100 MPGe). The 4xe is rated far less because it's a box on wheels. The only conclusion that can be drawn is the 4xe uses more electricity to go a given distance than a Tesla or a Hyundai Ioniq or whatever. You CANNOT use that number for anything else.
 

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As much as they appear to be reviled by JL/JT people, the Prius and hybrid Corolla we own regularly get 55-60MPG on mostly highway driving, vs the 31/40 the gas version Corolla gets with each having tiny non-plug-in hybrid batteries. I'd expect the same thing in the 4xe -- ignoring the A-pillar charging port and just leaving it on hybrid mode I'd expect at least 40MPG over the time it takes to drain the tank and refill.
So you intend to drive in Hybrid mode, not charge the battery and take a Wrangler from 22 mpg avg ( what my 2 Wranglers avg) and expect 40MPG from the addition of the hyrbid operation??

I wish you luck but if you do, please report back and give us feed back, suggest you use the actual gallons, miles and a spreadsheet. My guess is over a long trend might see 2 mpg increase.

Per the Prius. Co-worker has a few, brags about the gas mileage, we went on long trip for work, took his Prius, filled it drove about 350 miles too/from a conference and refilled, he got about 36 mpg, no where near the 50 MPG he always raved about, I am always skeptical of people inflating their MPG numbers, especially when they scoot along at 75 MPH. But 50mpg made him fell good that driving a tin can was worth it.
 

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PHEV and hybrids have always gotten their best MPG comparatively for city driving. They are not near as efficient for long drives.
 

jdeolivares

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No. No no no. Nooooooooo.

You are wrong. MPGe is only a rating of how efficient the vehicle is when using it's battery. It means nothing about how far you can go. It's go to do with motor efficiency and aerodynamics. Teslas have high MPGe because they have very efficient electric motors and are more aerodynamic (they are rated over 100 MPGe). The 4xe is rated far less because it's a box on wheels. The only conclusion that can be drawn is the 4xe uses more electricity to go a given distance than a Tesla or a Hyundai Ioniq or whatever. You CANNOT use that number for anything else.
Yes. That’s exactly right.
 

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MPGe is essentially a measure of the efficiency of the electric drive train on a vehicle. They could easily of just called it MPKw-hr. It's only useful to compare with other vehicles with electric drive trains. Besides that it, is essentially meaningless.


There are two potential benefits of electric/hybrid vehicles. Lower cost and lower emissions per mile driven.

I ordered the 4xe because:
1) it will cost less per mile than the gas only Wrangler
2) Costs less than a comparably equipped gas only Wrangler because of the $7500 tax credit
3) It is fun to drive and has all the high tech stuff I like. (Apple play, Adaptive cruise control, GPS, auto wipers and high beams, etc.)
4) Can get me safely to the mountains in the winter snow
5) Can go off road for fun.
6) Its the iconic Jeep

My cost per mile driven should be less because I can commute to work and around town using only electric propulsion and I can charge it up for free at work. Also, the cost per mile for electricity charging at home will be less than using gasoline which is now $3.60 a gallon and rising in CA.

So after all that the only number I want to know is cost per mile driven. I compute how many miles I drove divided by the gallons of gas consumed times the price per gallon, plus my electric cost for the electricity I used and paid for charging at home. I am quite sure this will be less than a gas only Wrangler.
Here's an interesting study:

  • the WSJ and researchers at the University of Toronto estimated the environmental impact of a Tesla (TSLA) Model 3 versus a Toyota (TM) RAV4. This is what they found:
  • The production of a Tesla Model 3 generates 12.2 tons of CO2 versus the Toyota RAV4's 7.4 tons (65% more), due to the metals needed for the Tesla's lithium-ion battery.
  • Emissions from ongoing use vary depending on the type of electricity grid used to charge the Tesla. Assuming the national average emissions from the US electricity grid, the Tesla emits 34% of the emissions of the RAV4 for every mile driven. Total emissions of the Tesla and RAV4 are equal at 20,600 miles driven, while at 200,000 miles, which the WSJ says is the lifespan of a typical car, the RAV4 has generated 78 tons of greenhouse gases versus 36 tons for the Tesla.
  • With 470 ft-lbs of torque at 0 rpm, the 4xe is going to be kick-ass on and off road.
 

HungryHound

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So you intend to drive in Hybrid mode, not charge the battery and take a Wrangler from 22 mpg avg ( what my 2 Wranglers avg) and expect 40MPG from the addition of the hyrbid operation??

I wish you luck but if you do, please report back and give us feed back, suggest you use the actual gallons, miles and a spreadsheet. My guess is over a long trend might see 2 mpg increase.

Per the Prius. Co-worker has a few, brags about the gas mileage, we went on long trip for work, took his Prius, filled it drove about 350 miles too/from a conference and refilled, he got about 36 mpg, no where near the 50 MPG he always raved about, I am always skeptical of people inflating their MPG numbers, especially when they scoot along at 75 MPH. But 50mpg made him fell good that driving a tin can was worth it.
Yep. Driving style makes a huge difference in any type of vehicle. Having driven a 38' RV for many years and discovering how most idiots drive, I have the habit of looking well ahead when driving anything. Cracks me up when folks go whizzing around me in my TJ omly to slam on their brakes at a red light. Using max regen and paying attention should yield much better MPG numbers than published.
 

phobos512

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Here's an interesting study:

  • the WSJ and researchers at the University of Toronto estimated the environmental impact of a Tesla (TSLA) Model 3 versus a Toyota (TM) RAV4. This is what they found:
  • The production of a Tesla Model 3 generates 12.2 tons of CO2 versus the Toyota RAV4's 7.4 tons (65% more), due to the metals needed for the Tesla's lithium-ion battery.
  • Emissions from ongoing use vary depending on the type of electricity grid used to charge the Tesla. Assuming the national average emissions from the US electricity grid, the Tesla emits 34% of the emissions of the RAV4 for every mile driven. Total emissions of the Tesla and RAV4 are equal at 20,600 miles driven, while at 200,000 miles, which the WSJ says is the lifespan of a typical car, the RAV4 has generated 78 tons of greenhouse gases versus 36 tons for the Tesla.
  • With 470 ft-lbs of torque at 0 rpm, the 4xe is going to be kick-ass on and off road.
The fun thing is at the end of the life of the Tesla, the battery can be recycled into a new battery, or it can be converted into a grid storage system, either of which will reduce the emissions of the future product. And, as the grid gets greener, electric cars automatically get greener as well.

There's data out there that there's limited degradation out to multiple six digit mileage in the real world.

https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/
https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/
 

GT2529

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No. No no no. Nooooooooo.

You are wrong. MPGe is only a rating of how efficient the vehicle is when using it's battery. It means nothing about how far you can go. It's go to do with motor efficiency and aerodynamics. Teslas have high MPGe because they have very efficient electric motors and are more aerodynamic (they are rated over 100 MPGe). The 4xe is rated far less because it's a box on wheels. The only conclusion that can be drawn is the 4xe uses more electricity to go a given distance than a Tesla or a Hyundai Ioniq or whatever. You CANNOT use that number for anything else.
Other hybrid cars display MPGe though. It's calculating miles traveled using 33.7 kWh which is the electrical equivalent of one gallon of gasoline. Just as you get worse efficiency with gas in certain trips you can get worse efficient with electricity and not travel as far using 33.7 KWh. It's a simple calculation that the car can run.

I still think that the display in this video is showing 53.6 MPGe - how else could you explain that number? It should say 99+ (the infinity value). So what do we call it if MPGe is fuel economy rating for electricity, and MPG is the fuel economy for gas. It's a hybrid average of both as if the Jeep is treating every 33.7 KWh used as being a gallon of gasoline. I suspect that if in this video, he started to use gasoline that the number will drop down fast. That's becasue gasoline is not using all of the energy potential to move the car - ICEngines are inefficient that way. Battery power uses the full energy potential in the electricity to move the car, that's why MPGe is lot higher at 49 MPGe for the 4xe than on gas only at 20 MPG.

In the video "You can't read electrons in miles per gallon" - Yes you can, with MPGe (the electrical equivalent of one gallon of gasoline, which is 33.7 KWh. It's treating "one gallon" as that much electricity for MPGe.

In common uses, most people just see MPGe as rating to compare hybrid cars to one other, but it can be calculated by the vehicle to rate your electrical efficiency driving, and as I theorized above, I believe Jeep is calling that dash MPG but it's including MPGe 33.7 Kwh average miles and treating it as a gallon of gas along with regular gasoline.

The bars on the left, however, where it says 30.2 avg MPG, that seems to be just MPG with no electricity in the calculation, because it is showing the green max 99 when he moved the car in electricity, so that would likely mean that 30.2 is gallons of gas used per miles driven.

Also see how the 53.6 dropped to 53.5 while the car was running on battery - that's becasue you are using electricity but not moving so the average went down.
 
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