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4XE - Worse mileage than other motors (after battery depleted)?

Shasta_Steve

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Picked up our JLURe today in Vermont and tomorrow will drive 300 miles to NJ. Gas tank is full, vehicle is on snail charger overnight so it will likely be around 80% by morning. If there's any interest I will report actual mileage after refilling. I expect about 20 miles all electric then will run hybrid mode all the way. Some hills and grades, not much real flat except the last 100 miles in NJ. Speed will vary for breakin, likely 50-70 mph.
I would love to see your numbers but I would also love to see someone post their MPG using numbers at the pump. I have never seen a trip computer that was not a little optimistic with their numbers. Just curious how close the computer and real life are going to be.
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Skeethree

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I would love to see your numbers but I would also love to see someone post their MPG using numbers at the pump. I have never seen a trip computer that was not a little optimistic with their numbers. Just curious how close the computer and real life are going to be.
I will provide pump to pump numbers. 4xe only has 41 miles on it, and I won’t be able to understand the trip computers until I get time to sit down with the owner’s manual. I found the JLUR we just traded to register about 2% low on total miles driven, 100 measured highway miles showed about 98 on the odometer. AFter that correction I found the gas mileage to be accurate.
 

rdmelton

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I will provide pump to pump numbers. 4xe only has 41 miles on it, and I won’t be able to understand the trip computers until I get time to sit down with the owner’s manual. I found the JLUR we just traded to register about 2% low on total miles driven, 100 measured highway miles showed about 98 on the odometer. AFter that correction I found the gas mileage to be accurate.
I got my 4xe last Saturday morning from Mall of Georgia. They are 9 hrs from me, but Mike Clinnin offered a great price and experience, so I decided it was worth it. It gave me a great opportunity to test out real world fuel mileage.

I did break-in on the first day. It was right at 300 miles at 40-55 mph in hilly county highways. I got 20 mpg on gas (excluding the initial 22 electric miles) based on actual miles and actual gallons at the pump.

On the second day, I did just over 300 miles at 70 mph on hilly interstate roads. I also got 20 mpg based on actual miles and actual gallons at the pump. During part of this drive, I did do a test for 2 hrs with it set on e-save (battery charge), and I did manage to charge the battery from <1% to 25% during that time.
 

4xeRubicon

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I got my 4xe last Saturday morning from Mall of Georgia. They are 9 hrs from me, but Mike Clinnin offered a great price and experience, so I decided it was worth it. It gave me a great opportunity to test out real world fuel mileage.

I did break-in on the first day. It was right at 300 miles at 40-55 mph in hilly county highways. I got 20 mpg on gas (excluding the initial 22 electric miles) based on actual miles and actual gallons at the pump.

On the second day, I did just over 300 miles at 70 mph on hilly interstate roads. I also got 20 mpg based on actual miles and actual gallons at the pump. During part of this drive, I did do a test for 2 hrs with it set on e-save (battery charge), and I did manage to charge the battery from <1% to 25% during that time.
Do you feel like the 2 hours on eSave with battery charge cost you any MPG on that part of the drive? If so, how much?

I have also gotten about 25-30% battery charge on two seperate 2 hour highway drives, but did not keep track of exact gas usage. I assume it costs at least a few MPGs to run battery charge mode.
 

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I would love to see your numbers but I would also love to see someone post their MPG using numbers at the pump. I have never seen a trip computer that was not a little optimistic with their numbers. Just curious how close the computer and real life are going to be.
Here are exact results from trip from VT to NJ:

Total miles: 322, 41 electric and 281 ICE
Initial charge level: 82%
Gallons of gas:12.2
Miles all electric: 23, at which point tripmeter indicated 53 mpg
Total mpg for trip: 25.8

I reset one meter after electricity hit 1%. This meter read 24.7 mpg at end of trip. About 5% of miles were electric after battery was down to 1%, I assume because of regeneration.

The green mpg meter on the left side of the display read 14 mpg when I picked up the Jeep, now reads 22mpg. I don’t yet know know what that one means.

Trip was 50-70 mph, some hills, a couple miles dirt when we left VT. I drive like grandpa.
 

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rdmelton

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Do you feel like the 2 hours on eSave with battery charge cost you any MPG on that part of the drive? If so, how much?

I have also gotten about 25-30% battery charge on two seperate 2 hour highway drives, but did not keep track of exact gas usage. I assume it costs at least a few MPGs to run battery charge mode.
I can't say exactly how much extra fuel it consumes to charge the battery. In general, what I have noticed is that in regular hybrid mode, the engine shuts down when going down hills, but in e-save mode it continues to run so that is the most obvious "extra" use of fuel to run in e-save mode. I watched the power flow screen and noticed that the amount of charge going into the battery was variable (typically it was moving between 0-4 kW on level ground), so it wasn't like the computer was constantly commanding the battery to heavily charge or at least not at an obvious fixed rate. Quick math says that an average of 2 kW x 2 hr = 4 hWh which is somewhere in the neighborhood of 25% battery capacity, so the real world results match the stated capacity. (Technically it's 17.3-17.5 kWh but there is about 15% of the capacity in reserve when the gauge reads <1%, so it takes around 15 kWh to go from 1% to 100%)

Another interesting observation is that even in e-save mode, the computer does use the battery, though vary sparingly. It seems to use it in situations where there is a fast change in power demand (like at the start of a hill), and the battery is used to deliver the instant power requested so there is no drop in speed/performance, and then the ICE "catches up" and then it goes back to charging the battery again.

Tangent: This seamless delivery of power is exactly what I was hoping to see from the 4xe, and it does exactly that. In my opinion, the power delivery doesn't provide a wow factor, but it is always there. In my opinion, previous Wranglers have always lacked in this area. It has gotten better over the generations, and this one now feels adequate/appropriate.

Back on topic: There is no magic way to make electricity to charge the battery for free. Presumably the factory programming makes optimal use of battery and shuts off the engine whenever possible to minimize fuel consumption.

I don't know that I will use e-save regularly because it does not seem the most energy efficient. In this case, I didn't have the ability to charge overnight, and I wanted to have several miles of pure electric to use mid trip for a specific purpose so that's why I did it. Plus it was fun to experiment.
 

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Here are exact results from trip from VT to NJ:

Total miles: 322, 41 electric and 281 ICE
Initial charge level: 82%
Gallons of gas:12.2
Miles all electric: 23, at which point tripmeter indicated 53 mpg
Total mpg for trip: 25.8

I reset one meter after electricity hit 1%. This meter read 24.7 mpg at end of trip. About 5% of miles were electric after battery was down to 1%, I assume because of regeneration.

The green mpg meter on the left side of the display read 14 mpg when I picked up the Jeep, now reads 22mpg. I don’t yet know know what that one means.

Trip was 50-70 mph, some hills, a couple miles dirt when we left VT. I drive like grandpa.
Excellent post. Lots of great information there. Looks to me that you got about 26.4 mpg at the pump but some was electric. For me that amount of electricity would cost about what half a gallon of gas costs. Still effectively about 25 mpg equivalent cost for the trip.

I think you hit the nail on the head about not driving these things too crazy and you will get good mileage. Or I should say good for a Jeep.

Other than that how much fun was it driving it back?
 

Skeethree

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Excellent post. Lots of great information there. Looks to me that you got about 26.4 mpg at the pump but some was electric. For me that amount of electricity would cost about what half a gallon of gas costs. Still effectively about 25 mpg equivalent cost for the trip.

I think you hit the nail on the head about not driving these things too crazy and you will get good mileage. Or I should say good for a Jeep.

Other than that how much fun was it driving it back?
It's funny. I drove our 2018 JLUR up to VT and the new 4xe home. The steering is much, much better, not nearly as loose and wandering. It now feels like a Jeep and not some Russian junk. The suspension is also noticeably better, maybe because of the extra weight and upgraded springs. On the whole, it seems like a great vehicle, but I think Jeep has a way to go on their hybrid system. Our Toyotas easily get a 30% bump over standard non-hybrid models and they are not plug-in hybrids. Highlander got 37.5 mpg on the same trip last month. No reason Jeep should be at zero percent better than the standard 4 cylinder. I think Jeep's regen system is not sophisticated enough. And as you point out, if the electricity for 24 miles costs 2 bucks there's no huge financial gain. Fortunately our home electricity is all photovoltaic, and we just added 11 panels to cover the Jeep.

Of course, I can always reminisce about my original Jeep, a '75 CJ-5 Renegade V-8, 150 horsepower and 12 mpg on a good day. We've come a long way.
 

Shasta_Steve

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It's funny. I drove our 2018 JLUR up to VT and the new 4xe home. The steering is much, much better, not nearly as loose and wandering. It now feels like a Jeep and not some Russian junk. The suspension is also noticeably better, maybe because of the extra weight and upgraded springs. On the whole, it seems like a great vehicle, but I think Jeep has a way to go on their hybrid system. Our Toyotas easily get a 30% bump over standard non-hybrid models and they are not plug-in hybrids. Highlander got 37.5 mpg on the same trip last month. No reason Jeep should be at zero percent better than the standard 4 cylinder. I think Jeep's regen system is not sophisticated enough. And as you point out, if the electricity for 24 miles costs 2 bucks there's no huge financial gain. Fortunately our home electricity is all photovoltaic, and we just added 11 panels to cover the Jeep.

Of course, I can always reminisce about my original Jeep, a '75 CJ-5 Renegade V-8, 150 horsepower and 12 mpg on a good day. We've come a long way.
I have been a little tough of people buying these thinking they are saving the world but I do think they will have advantages for some people. While I am happily going to accept the $7500 I don't think it is very good policy.

For Jeep to get better mileage I think they would of had to go the way of Toyota and put smaller gas engines in. I don't think that would of sat too well with the average Jeep buyer. Also Jeep did not change the drivetrain much. I am guessing it would of been too expensive to totally rework the drivetrain and again the average Jeep buyer would of probably hated it. Have to see what the all electric Jeep looks like but I doubt it would interest me that much.

Glad you like your Jeep so far though. Mine is basically my Wife's but I am looking forward to it too. If the damn thing ever shows up.
 

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The problem is weight and aerodynamics. Jeep cant cheat physics, and Toyota has a very different approach by using smaller engines, less batteries, and keeping weight down. They also are not making 370hp and 470tq. I drove the new hybrid Sienna minivan and it’s a dog. 245hp combined and it sounds like the engine is constantly straining under throttle. Toyota hybrid is also not plugin EV and does not qualify for the full tax credits.

The onLy way Jeep would really be able to maximize MPG would be to restyle the exterior, use low resistance rolling tires, ditch a lot of weight by getting rid of much of the off-road capability (heavy duty suspension, skid plates, go with smaller axles, etc). Then Its’s really not a Jeep Wrangler anymore.
 

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The problem is weight and aerodynamics. Jeep cant cheat physics, and Toyota has a very different approach by using smaller engines, less batteries, and keeping weight down. They also are not making 370hp and 470tq. I drove the new hybrid Sienna minivan and it’s a dog. 245hp combined and it sounds like the engine is constantly straining under throttle. Toyota hybrid is also not plugin EV and does not qualify for the full tax credits.

The onLy way Jeep would really be able to maximize MPG would be to restyle the exterior, use low resistance rolling tires, ditch a lot of weight by getting rid of much of the off-road capability (heavy duty suspension, skid plates, go with smaller axles, etc). Then Its’s really not a Jeep Wrangler anymore.
Perfectly stated. A wrangler really can't be compared apples to apples with other PHEV's.
 

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Perfectly stated. A wrangler really can't be compared apples to apples with other PHEV's.
The big issue is how Jeep went about it with the Wrangler, they retained the traditional 8spd auto, and put the electric motor on the input end of it. This means you're loosing efficiency when powering the vehicle along, and loosing it on regen as well coming back through the transmission. Because this is behind the transfer case, you're also only able to regen off the rear axle unless in 4Hi / 4Lo.

I think the numbers would have been better if Jeep took Toyota's approach with modifications to keep the Wrangler a Wrangler:
- Retain the 2.0L turbo four
- Use a dual electric motor planetary gear 'transmission and transfer case combo
- Put an electric motor on the front axle, similar to how Toyota puts one on the rear for their AWD hybrids. Peak efficiency would be to have it on the axle itself, in front of the front axle disconnect, but packaging reasons may make it better to integrate into the transfer case and eat the loss of always spinning the axle? Doing so also means axle upgrades are still viable. Include a lock up through the motor for 4Hi/4Lo operation.

This eliminates the big efficiency sucks of the current setup, no belts, no running through an 8spd auto, no need for a legacy starter motor, etc. It allows for full regen using the primary stopping power of the front axle even when in 2Hi. As a bonus, the full time 4WD mode can be more intelligent with how it adjusts power to the front and rear as conditions change. The total package should be shorter and lighter than even the normal Wrangler engine/trans setup too providing some additional flexibility to Jeep. You could even flip the script, FWD by default, better for the mall crawlers that never go off pavement, but that would likely bring out the pitchforks. What I don't know is how well Toyota has that schema locked up behind patents? I know Ford licensed it for their initial hybrids, haven't poked much recently to see if they or others still do?
 

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I can tell you that today I went 52 miles with E save on, tagged about 17.2 MPG. No mods yet on a Rubicon model. On the return trip of 52 miles I kept hybrid mode on with a 52% charge and ended up getting 21.4 MPG. Both trips used adaptive cruise.
If I’m 100% honest I am a bit disappointed in the MPG. Local driving is fantastic when I’m charging every night, but even so I did not expect to get 17.2 on or gas, would have still expected to get closer to 20. I also had max regen on the entire time as well.
No such thing as free lunch. Max gen will force stop more aggressively and consume more fuel in highway . Max gen is good for city driving but can be disaster for highway driving
 

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the number #1 biggest factor in mpg over all other factors is vehicle weight.
aerodynamics is #2
engine efficiency, tire configuration, power accessories usage, driver braking habits, etc. follow
I disagree.

the first factor is speed.

speed (+wind speed & direction) along with the drag coefficient of the vehicle (drag co-nonefficient for the jeep:)) is the first factor.

at low speeds, you are completely correct.

at higher freeway speeds these days it reverses, and the aerodynamics become number 1, then weight.

the REALLY innefficient shape of the Jeep not only has a large frontal area that has to push through the wind, but is also has a large rear area that is creating a low pressure area right behind the jeep that means large drag as well.

my question would be, at what speed do wind resistance and drag become the number 1 factor. I am guessing it is somewhere between 55 - 60, but that is a complete.

The key to remember on all this is that as speed increases, the increase in wind resistance is exponential.
 

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well yeah , if you drive like a bat out of hell 75-85-95mph your mpg will be terrible.
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