4XE Question - How long will you be able to run in Hybrid Mode before the electric motor disengages.?

HardSell

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Well that was certainly a word salad to show how detached from reality you are.
So, what is your reality? Until you clue us in, I regard your hash as vacuous nonsense. Thanks for the reveal.
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HungryHound

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>So I'll ask my original question a little differently. If I have a full charge and leave my house on a 65 - 70 mile an hour ride in the Hybrid mode, will the 4XE only be pulling from the Turbo 2.0 at those speeds (not talking acceleration but an even 65mph). Is the electric motor only going to be engaged (Hybrid Mode) during acceleration or low speeds? I'm trying to get my head around how exactly they work together in Hybrid Mode.

Hybrid mode will favor drawing power from the battery vs. consuming gasoline. So, assuming you drive with a reasonably light foot, you'll go the first 25 miles on battery, consuming no gasoline or next-to-none. After that, it'll operate as a hybrid, regenerating electricity when braking, and using it when accelerating. During that time, you'll get about the same mpgs as the 4cyl turbo - 22mpg highway.

So, 25 miles electric only,
40 miles on gas at 22mpg, using 1.8gal gasoline

65 miles total, 1.8 gallons of gas consumed = 36 mpg of gasoline

To figure the total cost for the trip add the cost of 1.8 gal of gas to the cost of 15kwh of electricity.

(I used 15kwh instead of the known battery size of 17kwh because the system never allows the battery to be discharged below about 10%)

The way to win with a 4xe is to plug it in at home (and at work, if you can) when driving it around town and then most or all of your local miles will be powered by electric rather than by gasoline.
We have a local beach bar with 3 free charging stations. I think that's going to be my best "win". 😁
 

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Looks like your technical questions have been answered. In my opinion, you're going to be less disappointed in the mpg than you will be in your first statement. I dont think you'll be getting your 4xe as soon as your dealer has promised.
 

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After the usable battery charge has been used up, I'm guessing there will be about a 10% increase in hwy MPG compared to a regular Wrangler. If a regular Rubicon gets 21 MPG on the Hwy, then that would be 23.1 MPG with a 4xe. The EPA numbers could be less, maybe like 8%. The difference in a hybrid F-150 compared to a non-hybrid is about 8% MPG on the highway, however youtube videos have shown higher, so it all depends on what route you take. If you were to go downhill from a mountain you could get like 45 MPG possibly, (from my own experience with PHEV cars), going up a mountain you could only get 23 MPG, with little to no opportunity for Regen. At regular highway driving, Regen is constantly happening even when you aren't braking. The vehicle will capture coasting energy, and then strategically use that energy while on the highway. At the end, the average of how much you went downhill vs uphill, vs flat driving will come out to the MPG for that trip, which could average out to a number higher than 23 MPG.

One fun thing to do with a PHEV is to never reset one of the trip distance meters, and to see your lifetime MPG (not MPG-e). The Jeep will likely give us a page that will say the lifetime MPG in the settings.
 
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GT2529

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I was curious about the numbers, since there is no Information posted by the EPA yet. Here is what I guessed and calculated with two scenarios. Assuming that hybrid mpg is 23 hwy and 19.44 city (8% better from regen braking and coasting).

Scenario 1 - primary vehicle, regular commute (40 miles, M-F), weekend warrior every weekend, 400 miles per weekend. Charge daily M-F, and before trips.

62.5 % hwy = 19,500 mi @ 23 mpg = 19,500 / 23 = 847.8 gallons (990 gallons regular Wrangler)
12.5 % city = 3,900 mi @ 19.44 mpg = 3,900/19.44 = 200.6 gallons (577.7 gallons regular Wrangler)
25 % electric = 7,800 mi @ 250+ mpg = 7,800 / 250+ = 0 gallons

Total = 31,200 / 1,048.4 = 29 mpg (regular Wrangler 19 mpg, 1567 gallons)
(Total gas savings if regular is $3.80 in CA = $1,972 per year)

Scenario 2 - Secondary vehicle for weekends (taking 2 trips per month, 400 miles each, and driving around regional and in the city every other weekend. Charging 1-2 per week).

75 % hwy - 7,200 miles @ 23 mpg = 7,200 / 23 = 313 gallons (342.85 gallons regular Wrangler)
12.5 % city = 1,200 mi @ 19.44 mpg = 1,200 / 19.44 = 61.7 gallons (133 gallons regular Wrangler)
12.5 % electric = 1,200 mi @ 250+ mpg = 1,200 / 250+ = 0 gallons

Total = 9,600 / 374.7 = 25 mpg (regular Wrangler 20mpg 475.85 gallons)
(Total gas savings if regular is $3.80 in CA = $383)

With the $7,500 tax rebate, $1,500 in CA clean fuel credit, you are paying less money for a comparable non-4xe Wrangler right there, and adding the fuel savings on top of that, it seems to be a no brainer to choose the 4xe over a non-4xe. Not to mention all the benefits that an EV brings.

.
 
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cpark92808

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I was curious about the numbers, since there is no Information posted by the EPA yet. Here is what I guessed and calculated with two scenarios. Assuming that hybrid mpg is 23 hwy and 19.44 city (8% better from regen braking and coasting).

Scenario 1 - primary vehicle, regular commute (40 miles, M-F), weekend warrior every weekend, 400 miles per weekend. Charge daily M-F, and before trips.

62.5 % hwy = 19,500 mi @ 23 mpg = 19,500 / 23 = 847.8 gallons (990 gallons regular Wrangler)
12.5 % city = 3,900 mi @ 19.44 mpg = 3,900/19.44 = 200.6 gallons (577.7 gallons regular Wrangler)
25 % electric = 7,800 mi @ 250+ mpg = 7,800 / 250+ = 0 gallons

Total = 31,200 / 1,048.4 = 29 mpg (regular Wrangler 19 mpg, 1567 gallons)
(Total gas savings if regular is $3.80 in CA = $1,972 per year)

Scenario 2 - Secondary vehicle for weekends (taking 2 trips per month, 400 miles each, and driving around regional and in the city every other weekend. Charging 1-2 per week).

75 % hwy - 7,200 miles @ 23 mpg = 7,200 / 23 = 313 gallons (342.85 gallons regular Wrangler)
12.5 % city = 1,200 mi @ 19.44 mpg = 1,200 / 19.44 = 61.7 gallons (133 gallons regular Wrangler)
12.5 % electric = 1,200 mi @ 250+ mpg = 1,200 / 250+ = 0 gallons

Total = 9,600 / 374.7 = 25 mpg (regular Wrangler 20mpg 475.85 gallons)
(Total gas savings if regular is $3.80 in CA = $383)

With the $7,500 tax rebate, $1,500 in CA clean fuel credit, you are paying less money for a comparable non-4xe Wrangler right there, and adding the fuel savings on top of that, it seems to be a no brainer to choose the 4xe over a non-4xe. Not to mention all the benefits that an EV brings.

.
Hi,
Looks like we won't be eligible for $1500 since they are requiring minimum 30 electric miles
 

Roverhi

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From what I hear about gas mileage of hybrids here in Kona, it's better than straight gas but not nearly as good as people were hoping for. Most of local driving is either up the mountain or down. The electric motor(s) use up the stored energy in the small battery very quickly to get up the hill and have to rely primarily on the gas engine than they do in flatter surroundings even with regenerative braking going back down the hill. For me, living at 1200', will get virtually no regenerative benefit heading down the hill on fully charged batteries in the morning. Still, for most of my driving will hopefully get by on just the battery though it will be nearly flat and have to be plugged in and charged every day when I get home. Oh boy, no more waiting in the gas line at Costco. It will be an incentive to add solar to the house to make up for our highest in the country electricity rates.

If I take the 75 mile trip to Hilo will probably get no benefit from the hybrid mode and poorer mileage than a straight gas JLU because of the extra weight of the battery and electric motors. Starting at sea level will eat up the battery going the 25 mile/2700' gain to where the road turns up to the saddle between Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa. That's another 25 miles and another 5000' altitude gain to top out at the saddle. That climb will be exclusively on gasoline at the engines worst fuel economy while lugging 4xe and the extra 600 pounds of the hybrid drive train up to the saddle. Will get some decent regeneration but not nearly a full charge on the 20 mile coast back down to Hilo at sea level. Any running around on that side will probably eat up a good deal of the battery reserve even though it will mostly be on flat ground. The return will be the opposite with the gasoline engine almost exclusively powering the 4xe up to the saddle and then regeneration down and hybrid for the slight downhill for the last 25 miles back to the boat in Kona. May get slightly better gas mileage than a straight gas JLU but probably not much better.

If i Interpret the data correctly that Jeep has put out, in hybrid mode on flat ground the truck will get 22 mpg. That's for a continuous drive from a full tank to empty on level ground based on a claimed 400 mile range and an 18 gallon tank. For those of us with commutes less than 22 miles round trip, we'll get infinite gas mileage because it will be exclusively on the battery with over night recharging at home. If you are an Uber driver doing 200 miles a day, your gas mileage will be the same or slightly less than a standard gas powered JLU if you are lucky.

Like to hear from you if you think my interpretation of the reality of 4xe mileage is correct.
 

Shasta_Steve

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I was curious about the numbers, since there is no Information posted by the EPA yet. Here is what I guessed and calculated with two scenarios. Assuming that hybrid mpg is 23 hwy and 19.44 city (8% better from regen braking and coasting).

Scenario 1 - primary vehicle, regular commute (40 miles, M-F), weekend warrior every weekend, 400 miles per weekend. Charge daily M-F, and before trips.

62.5 % hwy = 19,500 mi @ 23 mpg = 19,500 / 23 = 847.8 gallons (990 gallons regular Wrangler)
12.5 % city = 3,900 mi @ 19.44 mpg = 3,900/19.44 = 200.6 gallons (577.7 gallons regular Wrangler)
25 % electric = 7,800 mi @ 250+ mpg = 7,800 / 250+ = 0 gallons

Total = 31,200 / 1,048.4 = 29 mpg (regular Wrangler 19 mpg, 1567 gallons)
(Total gas savings if regular is $3.80 in CA = $1,972 per year)

Scenario 2 - Secondary vehicle for weekends (taking 2 trips per month, 400 miles each, and driving around regional and in the city every other weekend. Charging 1-2 per week).

75 % hwy - 7,200 miles @ 23 mpg = 7,200 / 23 = 313 gallons (342.85 gallons regular Wrangler)
12.5 % city = 1,200 mi @ 19.44 mpg = 1,200 / 19.44 = 61.7 gallons (133 gallons regular Wrangler)
12.5 % electric = 1,200 mi @ 250+ mpg = 1,200 / 250+ = 0 gallons

Total = 9,600 / 374.7 = 25 mpg (regular Wrangler 20mpg 475.85 gallons)
(Total gas savings if regular is $3.80 in CA = $383)

With the $7,500 tax rebate, $1,500 in CA clean fuel credit, you are paying less money for a comparable non-4xe Wrangler right there, and adding the fuel savings on top of that, it seems to be a no brainer to choose the 4xe over a non-4xe. Not to mention all the benefits that an EV brings.

.
Not sure what the numbers will end up being but there are a couple things I might add. In the first example you drive 7800 mi on electric. Assuming it gets 21 miles out of the battery and say uses 15 kw's to do it at 12 cent a kw. You would have $668 a year in added electrical cost. For most of the US gas is cheaper than $3.80 but around Sacramento where I am it is $3.22 at Costco.

Now I am buying one of these too but I do think we are taking a risk. Dealers often want a premium over a gas rig. Also we don't know yet what maintenance or reliability is going to be like for these yet. I am hoping everything works out good. As you point out with the $7500 tax credit the 4xe is actually cheaper than a similar gas rig.
 

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Probably the most honest post I've read regarding contemporary Wranglers.... thanks! I certainly appreciate the risk you have taken investing >1/20 of a million dollars and truly wish you an enjoyable and long lasting experience with your new ride.

Now for some inconvenient and unwelcomed facts: 1) Until stolen, my 1987 XJ with 31s, 5sp, ARBs, chassis stiffening and 410 gears (insurance valued it at $2900 when stolen) routinely got 20mpg at 75 mph without wind. Before mods and lift, 22mpg. Back in 2004, got 15mpg wheeling Hole in the Rock, Utah (mostly in low range). Got as high as 26 mpg for a 200 mile stretch in Kansas with a good tailwind doing 65 on rt. 56. 2) In '77 went wheeling with my neighbor in his CJ5, 4sp 6 cylinder Hurricane. We did Black Bear and Imogene. We got 20 mpg on all the tarmac even up and down the San Juan passes. We're talking about vehicles produced 34-50 years ago. There's simply not enough progress regarding economy. Yeah, in the fall of '19, I took a 2.0L JLR etorque out for a good ride. It could only meter 20mpg on the freeway. Dealer wanted to cut a deal for 7 Grand off MSRP for a net of $50,000! I loved the athletic ride, but driving my old XJ off the lot, I realized that despite the 285,000 miles on the clock and old seats, my beater was actually a comparable vehicle, with better steering, 50 grand notwithstanding! I kept hearing PT Barnum whispering something in my ear. After 50 years of development, a $50,000 JLR should be getting 40 mpg for God's sake! Must add that the mileage experienced above was all on ethanol free gas pumped back in those days. Figure 1 to 4mpg deficit for burning ethanol.
 
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Sboden

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Probably the most honest post I've read regarding contemporary Wranglers.... thanks! I certainly appreciate the risk you have taken investing >1/20 of a million dollars and truly wish you an enjoyable and long lasting experience with your new ride.

Now for some inconvenient and unwelcomed facts: 1) Until stolen, my 1987 XJ with 31s, 5sp, ARBs, chassis stiffening and 410 gears (insurance valued it at $2900 when stolen) routinely got 20mpg at 75 mph without wind. Before mods and lift, 22mpg. Back in 2004, got 15mpg wheeling Hole in the Rock, Utah (mostly in low range). Got as high as 26 mpg for a 200 mile stretch in Kansas with a good tailwind doing 65 on rt. 56. 2) In '77 went wheeling with my neighbor in his CJ5, 4sp 6 cylinder Hurricane. We did Black Bear and Imogene. We got 20 mpg on all the tarmac even up and down the San Juan passes. We're talking about vehicles produced 34-50 years ago. There's simply not enough progress regarding economy. Yeah, in the fall of '19, I took a 2.0L JLR etorque out for a good ride. It could only meter 20mpg on the freeway. Dealer wanted to cut a deal for 7 Grand off MSRP for a net of $50,000! I loved the athletic ride, but driving my old XJ off the lot, I realized that despite the 285,000 miles on the clock and old seats, my beater was actually a comparable vehicle, with better steering, 50 grand notwithstanding! I kept hearing PT Barnum whispering something in my ear. After 50 years of development, a $50,000 JLR should be getting 40 mpg for God's sake! Must add that the mileage experienced above was all on ethanol free gas pumped back in those days. Figure 1 to 4mpg deficit for burning ethanol.
I'm assuming more horsepower and torque now on a heavier jeep. The majority we are talking about are 4 doors with more safety features (many required now). You already mentioned ethanol. All these things make the engines now better though maybe no better in gas mileage. If you really wanted to see an increase in gas mileage, the wrangler would no longer look like a wrangler as aerodynamics is one of the biggest factors in gas mileage not getting drastically better. It really is an oranges to apples comparison between older models and current model.
 

GT2529

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Hi,
Looks like we won't be eligible for $1500 since they are requiring minimum 30 electric miles
Oh no, that's too bad. :(
Hi,
Looks like we won't be eligible for $1500 since they are requiring minimum 30 electric miles
Hi, On the website I just see it saying it’s based on battery size, and 16 KWh qualifies for $1,500.
 

GT2529

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Not sure what the numbers will end up being but there are a couple things I might add. In the first example you drive 7800 mi on electric. Assuming it gets 21 miles out of the battery and say uses 15 kw's to do it at 12 cent a kw. You would have $668 a year in added electrical cost. For most of the US gas is cheaper than $3.80 but around Sacramento where I am it is $3.22 at Costco.

Not sure what the numbers will end up being but there are a couple things I might add. In the first example you drive 7800 mi on electric. Assuming it gets 21 miles out of the battery and say uses 15 kw's to do it at 12 cent a kw. You would have $668 a year in added electrical cost. For most of the US gas is cheaper than $3.80 but around Sacramento where I am it is $3.22 at Costco.

Now I am buying one of these too but I do think we are taking a risk. Dealers often want a premium over a gas rig. Also we don't know yet what maintenance or reliability is going to be like for these yet. I am hoping everything works out good. As you point out with the $7500 tax credit the 4xe is actually cheaper than a similar gas rig.
That’s true, gas is so much cheaper outside Southern California. From my own subjective point of view, the electric bill isn’t something I’d notice overtime, whereas I’d notice a big bill at the pump filling up the tank every time. There are also many ways to charge for free - at work, within cities, and from solar. If you work it out strategically with a little work, one could pay an un-noticeable amount in electricity over time.

There is a risk being a new model, but hybrids in general have a lot of cost savings with maintenance. The brakes will last for a really long time, less oil changes, and less wear on the engine. The battery will likely have an industry standard 100,000 mi warranty. The part I’m worried about is just the standard Chrysler / Wrangler issues, with electrical problems (I once owned a Dodge and it had so many crazy electrical issues).
 

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If you really wanted to see an increase in gas mileage, the wrangler would no longer look like a wrangler as aerodynamics is one of the biggest factors in gas mileage not getting drastically better. It really is an oranges to apples comparison between older models and current model.
I appreciate your efforts to justify economic value of the contemporary product line of Wranglers, but lets look at some holes in your defense for supporting something which so obviously and painfully falls short of reasonably expected potential in defiance of 50 years development.

Firstly: The aerodynamic argument: The comparative experience I posted regarding my neighbor's CJ5 of 40 some odd years ago weakens that argument. True, shape moving through an atmosphere will affect efficiency, but at 75 mph the fuel efficiency differential is insignificant when compared to the differential effects of mass, friction and fuel combustion. Shape indeed, becomes significant with speeds in the hundreds of miles per hour realm, not in 4 low and only slightly more so at tarmac speeds. The argument against a brick's shape should not be expressed as if the brick was a sail. Just give a brick a little momentum, minimize friction and it will sail along just fine without much effort to maintain its momentum. A Wrangler can still look like a Wrangler and get much better mpg. Just because one is indoctrinated to believe and accept that argument doesn't make the argument legitimate. Low expectations and low standards call for low yield. By nature a business strives to offer the cheapest product possible for the maximum price the public will pay for that product. Competition introduces variables of higher expectations for the same price: For example, the factory JL hardtop is functionally inferior to aftermarket tops offered by
https://www.bulldawgmfg.com/shop/Discovery_Jeep_Hardtop_for_Wrangler_TJ_97_06-13-2.html
Flip up Windows.jpg
To protect the JL, such a top is only available for discontinued product lines. How is it that JL buyers can hold their heads high accepting such an inferior product while paying such a high price?

"All these things make the engines now better though maybe no better in gas mileage" (non sequitur) Stage right, Aflac Duck

Secondly: Four doors? The XJ was commonly available in four door configurations.

"It really is an oranges to apples comparison between older models and current model." As I understand the Apples and Oranges thing, the metaphor is more suitable to associate between manufacturers rather than within the same brand. The point here, is while new Wanglers are more comfortable, faster, bigger, far more costly, they are not meaningfully more economical in getting one to and from a trail. Then, there's the maintenance and repair cost issues....... and...... Oh!........b a t t e r i e s.
It's becoming obvious that all the complexity (exact opposite of the original Civilian Jeep mission) piled in today's Wranglers is beginning to yield diminishing returns as related to economy. I can't help but ask WTF? How is it that Stellantis can add friction, weight and complexity to the Wrangler while selling fuel economy, especially when today's fuel economy is barely better than it was 50 years ago? If the pursuit is for comfort, entertainment and on board diversions from the sport of actual 4 wheeling, I get it. If the pursuit is to fill some sort of status vacuum, I get it; a matter of generational preferential differences, wanting a boat to rock climb or overland. I hate seeing our little Jeep being Europeanized while leaving a void to fill for once American spartan simplicity, ingenuity, and practicality.
 

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Lots of words. I'm not even sure why any manufacturer worries about aerodynamics if it makes no difference. Tesla should be making a brick along with all the other companies but the only one to still pretty much have the same shape is the jeep wrangler. I guess they could be going for new sleeker looks but the faithful won't have it more than the faithful want minimalistic. You have a lot of information, so I'm interested in the weight difference of a typical manufactured TJ or XJ compared to the JLU? What was the HP and Torque of that time? I'm not an expert and maybe you are as this are just my opinions.

I completely understand you want a minimal jeep. There are others out there with the same feeling but do you think the wrangler would be around if you got what you want? IMO, it would have died had the 4 door not come out. Big Corp would have killed it.

Now I won't argue with you when it comes to what you get for the price. They are making a killing up until someone truly becomes competition. I'm excited for the Bronco in that a very successful Bronco means not only a potential price war but potential quality/tech advancement due to competition. The vehicle is popular for many different reasons which is part of its uniqueness and desirability to a wide range of people from true off road to "mall" crawlers.

I've been a sports car guy for many many years. I've switched to the wrangler because it does a lot of different things such as I can take the doors/top off and I can personalize it a bazillion different ways and I can get around in poor conditions. I also do go off road but not extreme rock crawling. I could care less about fuel efficiency as I didn't do any better in the sports cars. A 6.2L motor on premium is thirsty and costly. As for the 4Xe, it is more efficient and, most importantly, I get way more HP and Torque. Around town I'll use little to no gas and electric rates are much cheaper than gas in my area.

Again while saying all this, there in a niche for the minimalist but Jeep isn't seeing it enough. Who knows maybe the new company will create a minimalist version. There are these in my area which kind of harken back to the day: https://www.renospowersportskc.com/new-models/2020-mahindra-roxor-27952907b
 

jdeolivares

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I’m not sure your assessment that effect of air resistance is not significant until your at very high speeds is correct. Air resistance increases with the velocity squared. For example wind drag will by 4225 times higher at 65mph vs 20mph. Friction from the vehicle components or from the road does not scale with speed. It does scale with weight. The non aerodynamic shape and weight of the wrangler are the main contributors to it relatively low mpg.
 
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