3.6L ESS Dual Battery Consolidated Information

[VKSheridan]

I don’t have any information that states the PCM receives SOC, SOF or temperature inputs from any other source but the IBS. That‘s why @Wranglerman‘s findings make sense.

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[Jebiruph]

I don’t have any information that states the PCM receives SOC, SOF or temperature inputs from any other source but the IBS. That‘s why @Wranglerman‘s findings make sense.

That information is used for ESS related charging, not the basic smart alternator charging that cars have been doing for many years. The smart alternator charging provides the power to keep the vehicle running. The ESS charging adds additional power to that so the batteries stay charged for auto stop start.

 

[VKSheridan]

That information is used for ESS related charging, not the basic smart alternator charging that cars have been doing for many years. The smart alternator charging provides the power to keep the vehicle running. The ESS charging adds additional power to that so the batteries stay charged for auto stop start.

Sorry Jerry, that’s simply not true. You’re deeply underestimating the role of that lil’ critter. My Hellcat has a battery sensor and my wife’s PowerWagon has one as well. Neither have ESS (Thank God) but the sensor provides the same function (SOC, SOF and temperature).

The difference in how that data is used beyond managing the charging system is determined by the PCM.

If you have another late model car in your garage, I’d hinge to bet it too has a battery sensor.

Here’s a good read for ya: BATTERY SENSORS

 

[Jebiruph]

I first just unplugged the IBS but it immediately generated a EVIC error and also internal error codes so as my testing continued I located in JSCAN a IBS adaptation where it could be disabled/turned off so I tried that and left it plugged in.

I’ve been running this way since early January and my smart alternator seems to be doing what it was doing before and my resting voltages at each battery when disconnected are 12.6-12.9 so as it stands I don’t seem to have any bad affects from having the IBS turned off.

For clarification Will, when you say that your smart alternator seems to be doing what it was doing before (now with the IBS disabled), does that mean you are getting variable alternator output or a constant high 14.5V+ output?

 

[Jebiruph]

Sorry Jerry, that’s simply not true. You’re deeply underestimating the role of that lil’ critter. My Hellcat has a battery sensor and my wife’s PowerWagon has one as well. Neither have ESS (Thank God) but the sensor provides the same function (SOC, SOF and temperature).

The difference in how that data is used beyond managing the charging system is determined by the PCM.

If you have another late model car in your garage, I’d hinge to bet it too has a battery sensor.

Here’s a good read for ya: BATTERY SENSORS

I wasn't aware that battery sensors were used in vehicles without stop/start, thanks for pointing it out Vince. I try to keep my posts somewhat Wrangler related, since that probably applies to the 392, here's my corrected statement.

That IBS provides battery status information to the PCM. The PCM can use this information to facilitate faster battery charging and to enable/disable the auto stop start system status where applicable. The IBS does not provide information related to the basic smart alternator charging that cars have been doing for many years. The PCM directly monitors the alternator to control the smart alternator operation.

I hope that's better.

 

[VKSheridan]

No worries Jerry, we’re all on the same team trying to slay the same dragon. I’ll be darned if I can find any information that abdicates the IBS from providing inputs to the Wrangler PCM for alternator management. Can you share your source? Thanks!

 

[Jebiruph]

No worries Jerry, we’re all on the same team trying to slay the same dragon. I’ll be darned if I can find any information that abdicates the IBS from providing inputs to the Wrangler PCM for alternator management. Can you share your source? Thanks!

I don't have a source other than applied accumulated knowledge/experience and the electrical schematics. Here's my explanation.

The PCM connects directly to the alternator and monitors the alternator load on the Gen Sense circuit and adjusts the alternator output using the Gen Field Control circuit.

This diagram shows how the alternator distributes power through the High Current Fuses. Looking at the placement of the IBS on the main battery negative terminal, it is not in a position to monitor alternator output and only monitors power into and out of the main battery.

If the PCM determines that additional main battery charging is needed based on the IBS analysis of the main battery, it can use the field control circuit to increase the alternator output above what is needed based what it sees on the sense circuit. And as your article states, there are other actions the PCM can take to facilitate faster battery charging.

 

[WranglerMan]

Good information @WranglerMan. With the IBS neutered, I’d bet money the PCM is just running on the defaults since it’s getting no inputs to change its ways. I’m thinking you’ve gone and invented an old school alternator….LOL

To your point, I doubt you’d ever notice or care to have the alternator coast to minimum voltage on a long trip. Absent frequent start/stops, there’s not much of a profile for an active IBS to report. I guess if you liked to park with your engine off, 8000 watt system cranked and your KC’s on, the IBS might ask the PCM to backhand the alternator for a quicker charge.

Just a silly question: What made you consider relocating the IBS to the main battery like what the stock units run? Were there undesirable events that you were observing?

The reason I considered moving the IBS to the main crank negative like the factory setup is Jerry is correct on one of the things it does and that is monitor SOC,SOH and lots of other things and with the Cole Hersey solenoid opening and closing all the time Jerry believes the IBS gets confused and sends the wrong data for corrected charging and after I did some voltage testing I believe the same.

I don’t have the battery patch done on my 2018 and doubt that makes any difference, I also don’t use ESS and have it disabled using a SSS module and it’s been perfect but i recently started getting occasional random msgs checking ESS as I use it’s readiness as a sort of tool and when I got the “battery protect” mode msg that made me a bit concerned so I stated doing some digging.

I was all ready to move the IBS module but came across the IBS disable setting in JSCAN , I had tried this before just to see what it did and I never noticed any change so put it all back but chose to revisit it awhile back and so far so good.

For clarification Will, when you say that your smart alternator seems to be doing what it was doing before (now with the IBS disabled), does that mean you are getting variable alternator output or a constant high 14.5V+ output?

Jerry,

Normally as you know the voltage ramps up and down as we accelerate and brake so the voltage rolling down the road can read say 13.2 then when we slow down it ramps up and once stopped it drops back to the 13.2 and I was told a long time ago by lots that is smart charging as it’s supposed to benefit us with better mpg and HP

Anyway when I just unplugged the IBS it flagged and error and stored codes so I knew this would not work so i plugged it back in and cleared all the codes and turned off the IBS after doing a complete 6 stage conditional charge and then went locally and had both batteries load tested and both passed.

So far with the IBS turned off both batteries meter at the source in the 12.6-12.8 range and my EVIC voltage after coming off a weekly charge using my NOCO 10 is usually 12.9 and after the float charge has drifted off they both meter the same but the Cole Hersey relay is closed and usually after a few hours it opens and batteries are in the 12.7-12.8 range and after sitting over night they don’t change much.

Yesterday my running voltage was 13.2 and after about an hour of driving it slowly dropped to 12.9 and today after a few short start and stop errands ( all short trips) the EVIC display is reading 13.6

This is a vid I did along while back but you can get the idea




I sure those engineers at FCA are a lot smarter than me but so far I don’t see any bad effects for having the IBS turned off, I reached out to JSCAN and asked them what exactly turning it off does and have yet to receive an answer.

 

[VKSheridan]

Interesting.

I remember reading that and thinking perhaps JSCAN had left your PCM to use default settings (as if IBS was in learning mode).

Visualizing the auxiliary battery gone and the PCR gone, I'm thinking the goal is to be basically set up like a dual battery RAM 1500. Pretty simple, a couple of batteries and an isolator relay.

But it’s not that simple. Unlike a RAM, your PCM is constantly looking for inputs to engage/disengage ESS. We know wheel speed sensors, seal belt sensors, temperature sensors, the throttle and brake sensors along with dozens more inputs are polled for ESS determination.

Example, on my Jeep if voltage is sent to through the PCR control wire, a few things change. The voltage drops in my PCR control wire because my relay is good and the relay coil provides a path to ground. There’s a potential input. No voltage drop means open control circuit. Open means no PCR function, short means the same. Having the wire off and taped is an open. Possible source of ”ESS not ready”?

Knowing a RAM doesn’t have ESS, I checked to see how the RAM PCM interacts with the IBS (called BTS on a RAM). It’s close enough to the Jeep’s IBS.

Just for giggles, I compared it to the Dodge Neon’s sensor. Close enough as well and in that quest, I came across IDEA #2.

With my coffee finished, I have a couple of ideas to bounce off you guys:

1) What if you reconnect the PCR control wire to the PCR? At worst, it will click a disconnected relay.

2) Instead of unplugging IBS, what if you “replaced it”? It’s a sensor which means it’s nothing more than a variable resistor so what if you removed the variability? Translated: Stick a 22k resistor in the pin sockets like the dude in Arizona did with his Neon and test that?

 

[Jebiruph]

Interesting.

I remember reading that and thinking perhaps JSCAN had left your PCM to use default settings (as if IBS was in learning mode).

Visualizing the auxiliary battery gone and the PCR gone, I'm thinking the goal is to be basically set up like a dual battery RAM 1500. Pretty simple, a couple of batteries and an isolator relay.

But it’s not that simple. Unlike a RAM, your PCM is constantly looking for inputs to engage/disengage ESS. We know wheel speed sensors, seal belt sensors, temperature sensors, the throttle and brake sensors along with dozens more inputs are polled for ESS determination.

Example, on my Jeep if voltage is sent to through the PCR control wire, a few things change. The voltage drops in my PCR control wire because my relay is good and the relay coil provides a path to ground. There’s a potential input. No voltage drop means open control circuit. Open means no PCR function, short means the same. Having the wire off and taped is an open. Possible source of ”ESS not ready”?

Knowing a RAM doesn’t have ESS, I checked to see how the RAM PCM interacts with the IBS (called BTS on a RAM). It’s close enough to the Jeep’s IBS.

Just for giggles, I compared it to the Dodge Neon’s sensor. Close enough as well and in that quest, I came across IDEA #2.

With my coffee finished, I have a couple of ideas to bounce off you guys:

1) What if you reconnect the PCR control wire to the PCR? At worst, it will click a disconnected relay.

2) Instead of unplugging IBS, what if you “replaced it”? It’s a sensor which means it’s nothing more than a variable resistor so what if you removed the variability? Translated: Stick a 22k resistor in the pin sockets like the dude in Arizona did with his Neon and test that?

Here's a schematic of that shows that connector on the JL. One wire is power and the other is the LIN BUS that the microprocessor in the IBS uses to communicate battery status messages. I know, let's connect those two wires together with a resistor, after all it worked for a dude with a Neon. @VKSheridan , you first.

 

[VKSheridan]

It was a question @Jebiruph.

All you had to say was you think it wouldn’t work because the schematic shows, B+ with a resistance of 22 Ohms would have the potential of half an amp going to the PCM…..

 

[Jebiruph]

It was a question @Jebiruph.

All you had to say was you think it wouldn’t work because the schematic shows, B+ with a resistance of 22 Ohms would have the potential of half an amp going to the PCM…..

Wrong guess, LIN Bus/communication is the key bit of information.

 

[TrickyO]

This seems to be where all the IBS/ESS experts are. I would like to share my issue and seek advise on the most likely cause.

I have had this problem for some time now with the Start/Stop Unavailable Service Start/stop system and it it getting worse and more frequent. Here is an example of what happens. Today I took a drive of approx 200KM round trip. During this trip I had to pull over, turn the car off and restart 5 times to clear the message. When the message appears the car losses engine power (almost like its out of tune) until I stop and restart. When I have the cruise control going the car cannot maintain the gear and rapidly changes gears up and down until I turn it off. On the second instance today the Check Engine light came on with a P0345 code (Camshaft position sensor A, Circuit Bank 2). This has happened before as well.

Here are the things I and the dealer have done to try to rectify:
1. The AUX Battery has been replaced twice (car has done 44,000 kms and is 2.5 years old).
2. I have replaced the main battery with a higher capacity (Optima yellow top)
3. Dealer has recalibrated the camshaft positioning sensor
4. I have pushed all the fuses down to ensure they are seated correctly

So it is unclear to me what the cause could be, is it likely to be the IBS cause that is about the only thing I can think of reading all these posts, but would that cause the engine power to drop and the camshaft sensor issue?

Over to the experts for your advise before I drop it back to the dealer in 2 days and leave it with them until they have fixed it. I have a desert crossing at the end of next month and cant do it in a vehicle this unreliable. Help!!!

 

[Jebiruph]

This seems to be where all the IBS/ESS experts are. I would like to share my issue and seek advise on the most likely cause.

I have had this problem for some time now with the Start/Stop Unavailable Service Start/stop system and it it getting worse and more frequent. Here is an example of what happens. Today I took a drive of approx 200KM round trip. During this trip I had to pull over, turn the car off and restart 5 times to clear the message. When the message appears the car losses engine power (almost like its out of tune) until I stop and restart. When I have the cruise control going the car cannot maintain the gear and rapidly changes gears up and down until I turn it off. On the second instance today the Check Engine light came on with a P0345 code (Camshaft position sensor A, Circuit Bank 2). This has happened before as well.

Here are the things I and the dealer have done to try to rectify:
1. The AUX Battery has been replaced twice (car has done 44,000 kms and is 2.5 years old).
2. I have replaced the main battery with a higher capacity (Optima yellow top)
3. Dealer has recalibrated the camshaft positioning sensor
4. I have pushed all the fuses down to ensure they are seated correctly

So it is unclear to me what the cause could be, is it likely to be the IBS cause that is about the only thing I can think of reading all these posts, but would that cause the engine power to drop and the camshaft sensor issue?

Over to the experts for your advise before I drop it back to the dealer in 2 days and leave it with them until they have fixed it. I have a desert crossing at the end of next month and cant do it in a vehicle this unreliable. Help!!!

Your Start/Stop error is not caused by the Start/Stop system, it's being disabled because of your engine problem. When engine problems are detected the Start/Stop gets disabled and the threshold to disable the Start/Stop system can be lower than the threshold to turn on the check engine light.

I just went through this with my Gladiator and camshaft issues causing P0300 misc. misfire issues. My first indication of any problem was the Start/Stop error light turning on. Sometimes the check engine light came on and sometimes I could feel the engine running ruff. After two trips to and 3 weeks at the dealer, they think replacing a failed Cam Phaser Actuator - Mopar (5047788AD) fixed it.

I used a Bluetooth ODB adapter and Jscan live monitoring to monitor the errors while I was driving. Here's a link to what I did https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/live-data-monitoring-with-jscan.55262/post-904912

 

[TrickyO]

Your Start/Stop error is not caused by the Start/Stop system, it's being disabled because of your engine problem. When engine problems are detected the Start/Stop gets disabled and the threshold to disable the Start/Stop system can be lower than the threshold to turn on the check engine light.

I just went through this with my Gladiator and camshaft issues causing P0300 misc. misfire issues. My first indication of any problem was the Start/Stop error light turning on. Sometimes the check engine light came on and sometimes I could feel the engine running ruff. After two trips to and 3 weeks at the dealer, they think replacing a failed Cam Phaser Actuator - Mopar (5047788AD) fixed it.

I used a Bluetooth ODB adapter and Jscan live monitoring to monitor the errors while I was driving. Here's a link to what I did https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/live-data-monitoring-with-jscan.55262/post-904912

So, 2 weeks at the dealer. Chief engineer and Jeep Master Tech, they replaced the camshaft positioning sensor. Picked it up yesterday. Did the same drive (about 20kms at 110kmph) with cruise control on. Roughly the same spot the Stop/start unavailable service stop/start system came on and it threw the same code P0345. So it seems the problem isn't the sensor. I was running JSCAN at the time and nothing seemed to change other than the code. I have attached the screen shots. Any further ideas?

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