Gazelle

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Not sure if this is the right place to post this question, but do we know if there will be any interference of new powertrain components with lift kits? The big battery is inside the body so no issue there, but do we think any of the new electrical will pose any issues? I certainly hope not... thanks in advance.
From what I've ready & seen, there should not be issues with the electric motors or battery with lift kits. I would not be surprised if the regular 2.0L skid plates don't fit due to the charger/DCDC converter on the driver's side adjacent to the rear driveshaft. In the image below, the blue bits are new.

1609203112912.png


The transmission, driveshafts, and battery are new. The axels are the same as those used on the JT Rubi (if the article I read was correct), and the rest of the suspension is unchanged...with the exception of higher spring rate coils. This model will weigh 5222Lbs; about 150Lbs more than the portly 392, 300Lbs more than the diesel, and something like 700Lbs more than the base V6 manual. So, while the suspension is the same style as previous JL's, the springs will really need to be upgraded on any lift kit. Supposedly, Mopar is working on one.





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Gazelle

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Based on my 50 years of wheeling around Utah and Colorado, most of the interesting trails require water crossings.... some quite deep. Based on my 50 years of using outdoor electrical systems, water always finds its way.
It's funny, but in 40 years of light trail crawling in CO, MA, CA, and WA, the only water problem I've ever had was with my old '73 CJ5. Every time I would splash water around the engine compartment, it would die. It'd always start up after a few minutes of drying, but invariably, I'd end up stalled in the middle of mud puddles having to pull a tow strap to my friends who splashed straight through. I sure hope a 45 year newer engine and drivetrain is better sealed than that old CJ.

Then there was the need to scrape ice off the INSIDE of the CJ's windshield due to poor defrosting. I suspect that's been improved, too. The CJ wasn't a convenient transportation appliance, but it sure was fun.
 

HardSell

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in 40 years of light trail crawling
Not referring to light or nearby trail crawling. When water invades a hybrid electrical system, it's not going to be a matter of just waiting a few minutes for shorts to clear a single electric relay chain. A hybrid set up consists of a dozen or more interdependent, sequenced algorithms beginning with a keyless RF starting sequence interlinked with screen circuitry directed by a small battery, proceeding through the ESS chain and 48V lithium ion battery, ending with turbo/injector/timing/transmission circuitry. A matter of just a .2 volt variance somewhere and the computers will shut down the entire sequence. My son's JK auto disconnect feature failed after fording 18" of water. Warranty covered the $2200 repair. He now avoids water crossings requiring more than 10". Of course, failure of the disconnect feature doesn't shut down ignition. A useful off road PHEV must be simultaneously bullet proof and water proof. Long term field applications of electro-mechanical physics makes this very difficult to economically achieve. Laws of thermodynamics suggest the more complex an interdependent electro-mechanical-computer assisted combustion system is, the shorter its useful lifespan (dependability). So, now we have the world's affirmed three worst auto manufacturers combining their intellectual resources to build and sell such a system. For good reason, we don't see Toyota hybrids in difficult Jeep country. Indeed, if this setup proves as stout as a CJ, which it must be, then Stellantis has accomplished something admirable and ground breaking despite reputations and odds. An all electric Jeep is simpler, more capable and less prone to trail failure in that an independently dedicated motor to each wheel or at least one per axle will provide traction without the need for a complex chain of calculations required to deal with ignition, combustion, lubrication, torque and momentum. If one motor fails, then the other(s) can limp you out. This works well until a charge is required after a few minutes of applying low RPM, high torque, steep grade friction applications common to 4 wheeling. The kind of momentum required to keep an electric motor turning in 4 wheeling is different than four light weight, low friction tires mounted on an aerodynamic light weight frame zipping along smooth level tarmac in 70º weather with a tail wind. I welcome the notion of serious hybrid or electric wheeling, but are we not talking flying cars here? We'll see after first adopters spend their eight year financing arrangements sleeping with these things.
 
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Gazelle

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Not referring to light or nearby trail crawling. When water invades a hybrid electrical system, it's not going to be a matter of just waiting a few minutes for shorts to clear a single electric relay chain. A hybrid set up consists of a dozen or more interdependent, sequenced algorithms beginning with a keyless RF starting sequence interlinked with screen circuitry directed by a small battery, proceeding through the ESS chain and 48V lithium ion battery, ending with turbo/injector/timing/transmission circuitry. A matter of just a .2 volt variance somewhere and the computers will shut down the entire sequence. My son's JK auto disconnect feature failed after fording 18" of water. Warranty covered the $2200 repair. He now avoids water crossings requiring more than 10". Of course, failure of the disconnect feature doesn't shut down ignition. A useful off road PHEV must be simultaneously bullet proof and water proof. Long term field applications of electro-mechanical physics makes this very difficult to economically achieve. Laws of thermodynamics suggest the more complex an interdependent electro-mechanical-computer assisted combustion system is, the shorter its useful lifespan (dependability). So, now we have the world's affirmed three worst auto manufacturers combining their intellectual resources to build and sell such a system. For good reason, we don't see Toyota hybrids in difficult Jeep country. Indeed, if this setup proves as stout as a CJ, which it must be, then Stellantis has accomplished something admirable and ground breaking despite reputations and odds. An all electric Jeep is simpler, more capable and less prone to trail failure in that an independently dedicated motor to each wheel or at least one per axle will provide traction without the need for a complex chain of calculations required to deal with ignition, combustion, lubrication, torque and momentum. If one motor fails, then the other(s) can limp you out. This works well until a charge is required after a few minutes of applying low RPM, high torque, steep grade friction applications common to 4 wheeling. The kind of momentum required to keep an electric motor turning in 4 wheeling is different than four light weight, low friction tires mounted on an aerodynamic light weight frame zipping along smooth level tarmac in 70º weather with a tail wind. I welcome the notion of serious hybrid or electric wheeling, but are we not talking flying cars here? We'll see after first adopters spend their eight year financing arrangements sleeping with these things.
HardSell, you make a couple good points. If water enters the "sealed" systems, corrosion or outright shorting may occur. The electronic circuitry will suffer the most from this, but it will also, generally, have the best sealing and protection from water ingress. I'm a little more concerned with the various sensors, like the locker sensor in the Rubi axels, which appear to be poorly manufactured. The sensors in the 400V NMC battery and within the 8 speed ZF hybrid transmission should all be well sealed from water intrusion. Interesting to note that much of the transmission control circuitry is encased in the transmission itself: ZF Intelligently Designs New Generation 8-speed Automatic Transmission for Hybrid Drives - ZF
1609281026941.png

The control system programming is complex and this is the area I expect to need some improvement as miles and unforeseen circumstances occur. Even Jeep's head of Propulsion Systems stated they needed a larger team of programmers than mechanical engineers to develop the control algorithms. Comparatively, the mechanical parts are easier to bullet proof and waterproof than the integration of all the inputs from the numerous temperature, speed, load, user input, and electrical sensors. I fully expect to need at least one control system to be reprogrammed within the first couple years, but I won't worry much about the electronic controls failing due to moisture.

A fully electric, multi-motor Wrangler with sufficient battery capacity would be great, as you mentioned, but I would prefer to have gasoline as a backup power source for the next decade at least. Finding charging stations in the backcountry will continue to be an issue for many years. Yes, max electrical power is needed at zero electric motor speeds; thankfully, the 4xe has an IC engine to turn the transmission which also recharges the battery. Computer controlled auto transmissions have been working well under extreme conditions for at least a couple decades.

Sorry to hear that your son's JK had an issue with the ?automatic front axle disconnect?. Some of those systems used to use vacuum while others use an electric motor to move a splined sleeve which connected to the two front axle shafts. I had some issues with the unit in my 20 year old GMC pickup; mainly it was just slow to operate. I'm hoping the FAD in the JL's is a more reliable system, but I know there are aftermarket solutions if it causes problems.

Finally, I'm in complete agreement with your point that if this propulsion system is both robust and reliable, Stellantis has accomplished something admirable. I choose to remain positive, in this case, and truly hope they have.
 

Gazelle

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Does anyone know what gears 4xe will have? Will the Rubi 4xe get the 3.73 like the 392 and the 3.0D?
The Rubicon will have 4.10 gears but I'm not sure if the Sahara uses 3.73 or 3.45's.
 

HardSell

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I'm a little more concerned with the various sensors, like the locker sensor in the Rubi axels, which appear to be poorly manufactured.
Indeed. The issue is when sensors fail, and they inevitably do, will the configuration allow the unit to continue (limp) without shutting down? ICEs are capable of offering huge latitude for running when needing attention, but will ignition/combustion program schemes seeking fine tuned perfection allow the ICE to run regardless rather than simply shut off when tolerances are exceeded. My old XJ had stupid quantities of sensors; but I could disconnect every one except the crankshaft position sensor and the thing would still run well enough to get home. Sacrificing performance headroom for perfection is not a good trade off. Even racing machines allow a driver to get to the pit when something goes wrong.

Regarding TJ lockers: so far, the factory units have delivered superior dependability over the ARBs certifiably installed in my XJ. Every aspect of the Rube Goldberg affair for engaging ARBs trail failed over the 15 years I used them. The TJ lockers are just less Goldberged than ARBs. When and if they fail I'll just stick Detroits in and hub lock the front axle as it should have been done as it was in the CJs. One positive step back for the JL is the front axle disconnect feature similar to my 285k XJ. Never had issues with that system. It's ludicrous to have the whole front end endlessly turning, wasting fuel and needlessly wearing everything out for the sake of "convenience" when only needing to be engaged one percent or less of drive time for 4 wheel traction.

If Stellantis offered a base 2 door PHEV pickup with a Rubicon package I'd give it very serious consideration. Eventually, some manufacturer is going to recognize that significant market vacuum as the Covid depression takes hold and income redistribution gains traction (pun intended). Problem is, being a New Mexico resident, I'm acquainted with Deb Haaland's political agenda ... She hates mechanized off road accessibility and fully supports the Green New Deal. I wonder how many 4 wheelers voted Democrat. It's going to be a very different country after inauguration day.
 

Gazelle

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Getting this thread back on track a bit...I noticed in the supplement a few interesting facts.
  1. The HV battery won't charge if the hood is open.
  2. If the vehicle is in "run" and you open the hood, the engine starts.
  3. The 5 dashboard mounted battery LED's blink at two rates: once per second or twice per second. The higher blink rate indicates battery charge level in the upper 10% of the LED's range. So, for example, a slowly blinking middle LED would indicate 50-60% charge while a fast blinking, 4th LED indicates 70-80% charge.
  4. Both the HV battery and the intercooler/power electronics have independent cooling systems & reservoirs. Neither is easily serviceable as they require a special tool to remove the fill cap.
 

jdeolivares

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For your reading pleasure. I discovered the 2021 Wrangler 4xe Hybrid Supplement to the 2021 Wrangler Owner’s Manual this morning on the Mopar website. Merry Christmas to All! Be Safe and Have a Blessed Day!

Download link: https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/downloads/2021-Wrangler-4xe-Hybrid-Supplement.pdf

2021 Jeep Wrangler 4xe Hybrid Supplement.png
One thing I noticed is it says not to use the ev charging cord with an extension cord. I had a Leaf and used an extension cord with no issues . I also read that ev cables can be used with extension cords. Of course the extension cord needs to be hefty enough to handle the current load safely. I wonder what the issue is.
 

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One thing I noticed is it says not to use the ev charging cord with an extension cord. I had a Leaf and used an extension cord with no issues . I also read that ev cables can be used with extension cords. Of course the extension cord needs to be hefty enough to handle the current load safely. I wonder what the issue is.
Probably just something to cover themselves if someone uses a poor cable to charge with and causes a fire or damage.
 

jdeolivares

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Probably just something to cover themselves if someone uses a poor cable to charge with and causes a fire or damage.
Yes. That’s what I thought too.
 

HungryHound

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One thing I noticed is it says not to use the ev charging cord with an extension cord. I had a Leaf and used an extension cord with no issues . I also read that ev cables can be used with extension cords. Of course the extension cord needs to be hefty enough to handle the current load safely. I wonder what the issue is.
I always find the "do not use and extension cord" cautions interesting. All my house circuits are 20 amp with #12 wire. Let's say my neighbor is set-up at 15 amp #14 Romex. The outlet in his garage by the main panel has a lower power rating than my farthest outlet using a 20-foot #14 extension cord. Would be more useful if manufacturers specified extension cord sizes instead of just covering their ASSets.
 

HungryHound

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Thanks for the link to the supplemental manual. I still didn't find what I was looking for, though. The Level 1 charging circuit requires 120vac, 15amp, but the literature does not specify what the actual max charge power requirement will be. Can we ASSuME it's 80% of that 15 amps or 12 amps max? My plan is to put together a portable solar charging system to charge this thing while I'm at home or away on sunny days. Being in a small beach town, we only have one public place with a Lev 2 charging system. Thankfully, it's at a small beach bar so you can entertain yourself while charging, but I'd love to charge this vehicle while at the beach for the day. For that, a useful full load requirement would be nice.
 

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I’ve never owned a hybrid and was wondering how oil change intervals would work. Found this:
E4C09BD5-E0CE-4A8C-A876-AA2C440FCF8C.jpeg


And that’s it, just wait for it to let you know, lol.
 

HungryHound

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I’ve never owned a hybrid and was wondering how oil change intervals would work. Found this:
E4C09BD5-E0CE-4A8C-A876-AA2C440FCF8C.jpeg


And that’s it, just wait for it to let you know, lol.
I wonder what the door hinge lubrication schedule is when they haven't been on the vehicle for a year?
 

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