2021 JL with automatic, slams itself in park

Reinen

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My use of a female pronoun was a function of my failing memory: I incorrectly remembered the rollover victim being a female TV personality. That’s my error.
Fair enough. People of our age do slip into old misogynist social norms sometimes and the young ones are right to call that out.

As to the rest of your post, I conclude we simply have wildly divergent world views.

You may find it interesting, challenging, or worthwhile working on an “interface” that will train people like me into new behaviors but, like many others, I’m comfortable with behaviors that have worked safely for me for five or six decades. As long as I’m not hurting anybody else, and I’m not, I’d prefer to be left alone with functional products that work.
I don't think it's a different world view, I do think young people are over protected now. There is a lot to be learned from minor injuries which young people aren't learning. But anyway...

My point is that user interface designers specifically support older methodologies whenever they can. It's part of designing human-machine interfaces that work for everyone. But when safety is involved, hands are tied. People rarely take full responsibility for accidents. They file lawsuits either to not accept blame themselves, out of greed, or they are financially forced to in order to cover medical expenses and lost income. So it is actually hurting someone else, financially. There is no direct desire to protect people from themselves, there is a strong desire to protect the company from people's lawsuits. Protecting people from themselves is just a means to an end. So don't blame the designers and engineers. Blame users, Congress and the judiciary. People voted this into existence.

And let’s not pretend that the gas can example is an isolated one.
Oh, it's definitely not. I'm all for safety features but only if they do more good than harm. That isn't always the case.

When I see a kid ride by on a sport-bike with shorts, flip-flops, and no helmet I think he’s an idiot
They're is actually something to be said for this kid. That person less likely to take risks and is more focused on their surroundings. When you don someone in full protective gear, human nature causes them to skew their risk tolerance to compensate. Often to a greater degree than the protective gear warrants. This carries over into vehicles as well. Today's drivers are far more comfortable with being unskilled and inattentive than drivers were without all the safety features. But that is the direction all these safety laws are pushing things. The inevitable conclusion is fully autonomous vehicles. Something I find very, very boring, sedentary and unhealthy.
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Wbino

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Fair enough. People of our age do slip into old misogynist social norms sometimes and the young ones are right to call that out.


I don't think it's a different world view, I do think young people are over protected now. There is a lot to be learned from minor injuries which young people aren't learning. But anyway...

My point is that user interface designers specifically support older methodologies whenever they can. It's part of designing human-machine interfaces that work for everyone. But when safety is involved, hands are tied. People rarely take full responsibility for accidents. They file lawsuits either to not accept blame themselves, out of greed, or they are financially forced to in order to cover medical expenses and lost income. So it is actually hurting someone else, financially. There is no direct desire to protect people from themselves, there is a strong desire to protect the company from people's lawsuits. Protecting people from themselves is just a means to an end. So don't blame the designers and engineers. Blame users, Congress and the judiciary. People voted this into existence.


Oh, it's definitely not. I'm all for safety features but only if they do more good than harm. That isn't always the case.


They're is actually something to be said for this kid. That person less likely to take risks and is more focused on their surroundings. When you don someone in full protective gear, human nature causes them to skew their risk tolerance to compensate. Often to a greater degree than the protective gear warrants. This carries over into vehicles as well. Today's drivers are far more comfortable with being unskilled and inattentive than drivers were without all the safety features. But that is the direction all these safety laws are pushing things. The inevitable conclusion is fully autonomous vehicles. Something I find very, very boring, sedentary and unhealthy.
Let me guess, your JLR.
LED lights,bumpers,GPS,mirrors,tire pressure gauges etc...yeah you're roughing it. 😶
 

Reinen

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Let me guess, your JLR.
LED lights,bumpers,GPS,mirrors,tire pressure gauges etc...yeah you're roughing it. 😶
I strongly recommend that you do not practice your version of "roughing it" in the desert where there is minimal shelter, no water, no forageable food, no cell service or civilization for over 100 miles of extremely rough terrain with only a minimal chance of encountering a passer by. This is not the shore.

I absolutely have a well maintained capable vehicle, a GPS w/ emergency satellite beacon and someone monitoring my excursions in case I don't reach waypoints as expected. My life may depend on it. Only fools don't.
 

JayCeeX2

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When I open the door and it is in gear.

If I get to where I want to take the doors off, what do I do?

These are crank windows, and no speakers in the doors or anything, so no wires to them I suspect.

Any tips? I'm a YJ guy with this this new Jeep foreign to me all this electronic garbage.

I had the same thing happen to me when I first purchase my Jeep. I have a sloped driveway. If I'm washing or working on any of my vehicles and need to move it, I climb in, with the door open, start it, put it in neutral and let it just roll back a bit. I did it twice before I realized the Jeep didn't like that. Its how found this forum tho once I researched what was happening.
 

Rescue119

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bec
What if I'm road hunting. Hard to shoot with my seat belt on and that window is awful small to swing a barrel out
because depending on where you are thats illegal
 

multicam

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I do get it. I am an older guy. And I'm an engineer. While not in the auto industry, I do specialize in user interfaces to a significant degree.


During the entire description of the method you learned as kid, all I could think was "Um... There's a backup camera now". A significant part of designing user interfaces is how to get people set in their ways of using old techniques to use new, better techniques. If it's just a matter of efficiency and convenience, you can continue to support the old technique for those unwilling to change. But if safety is involved, you need to specifically inhibit use of the old technique. Stepping out of a vehicle mid-operation leaves significant opportunity for mistakes, which do happen and is a safety issue. You may resent that, but if people do make a mistake they are much more likely to file lawsuits instead of blaming themselves. So you're being saved from yourself whether you like it or not. A company can go out of business if they don't.

What are you really resenting anyway? You admit the new technique is better than the old technique you used for years. How dare you make me change to a better technique? ...Really?


Herself?!?! What's up with that?
The straw that broke the camel's back was the high profile death of Anton Yelchin (male, btw) best known for playing Checkov in the J J Abrams' Star Trek movies. It was already known that Jeeps had an abnormally high amount of rollaway incidents due to driver error and there was already a recall underway to help address it. It reached dealerships the same week as Anton's death. It was the recall combined with Anton's high profile death which understandably resulted in the additional step of developing Auto Park.

Lets not try to dismiss this with the "female drivers" trope. If it was caused by any sex, it was men. Nevertheless, the correct word is "themself" because it's a well established fact that all humans (both male and female) are never infallible and will inevitably make mistakes.


I will agree with you about gas cans. The safety features are good in concept but terribly implemented. They end up doing the exact opposite of their design intent. I have to assume a modern gas can spout will force me to spill gas while it's much easier to not spill gas with an old gas can. Part of designing a user interface is testing results once they are used in real-world applications. They could very well fail and be worse than not being present at all. But that's what happens when you get government involved. They'll force a bad safety feature into law and make it much more difficult to undo when it fails to perform as intended.
Do you know what “user interface” change caused Anton Yelchin’s death? (And the unusually high # of similar incidents)

It was because on that era Grand Cherokee, they switched from a traditional P-R-N-D shifter to a lever thing that you just push forward multiple times to cycle thru gears or pull down to cycle thru gears. There was no unique position that the shifter ended up in if you were successful in putting it in Park; the shifter returned to the center no matter what. This meant that to confirm that you made it in Park you had to check the dash indicator light.

Anton Yelchin and others probably tapped that shifter to push it forward... just not enough to successfully put it in Park. Without haptic feedback they exited the car without confirming it was in Park.

User error, sure... but made possible and arguably, inevitable by a completely unnecessary design change from a tried-and-true mechanism that could be operated blindfolded and that you could confirm what gear you’re in blindfolded (the traditional PRND shifter).

While I’m not a huge fan of the gear selector knobs in RAM pickups, at least with them if I turn it completely counter-clockwise and it stops turning, I know it’s in Park. I don’t have to check a light on the dash. All of this is moot anyway though because I drive a manual jeep.

Now tell me, was that a wise design change? Ditching a shifter that gives you haptic feedback for something which requires an additional step to confirm that it registered your selection? You automatic drivers now have Autopark because of it.

there is absolutely nothing that you can see better hanging your ass half out of the door than you can from the drivers seat using your mirrors and spatial awareness.
My wife and I pull a trailer with her 4Runner and I’m very particular about where my trailer ends up when I’m backing it into its final resting place. If it’s like 3” off, I’ll get back in and fix it. I can’t see behind the trailer without getting out of the vehicle... and I’ll be god damned if I close the door and put my seatbelt on every time I want to move that trailer an extra 2” here or there. Luckily the 4Runner isn’t fucking obnoxious like the Automatic jeep and I can quickly and efficiently make my micro-adjustments. The only way to make this happen with camera and mirrors would be an aftermarket camera on the trailer but I’m not going there (my brother in law has that for his 5th wheel though and there I feel it was a wise investment, that thing’s huge).
 

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Just FYI .

Actor Anton Yelchin was killed when his Jeep Grand Cherokee rolled backwards and crushed him between metal gate at his home in 2016 This caused some automakers to make the Auto-Stop feature.

When I bought my 2019 Sahara a co-worker had to move it when I was in a meeting and couldn't move it and came in telling me my Jeep transmission was broke. He had door open without seatbelt too. :facepalm:
 

NewJLU2019

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I don’t think you get it.

I’ll apologize in advance for the long rant, but this topic really hits a nerve for me…

We older guys grew up in a world where one tragedy didn’t automatically result in government or corporate intervention to save us from ourselves. For most of us, all the expensive, poorly designed, idiot-protection contrivances are downright irritating, and the world is dominated by them, particularly in the US. Many of them, like the spring-loaded, half-twist, triple-sow-cow, spouts on portable gas cans don’t work as well as the simple 1940s versions they forcibly replaced. (The old gas can spouts were made of a soft, pliable, rubber. To fill a saw, mini bike, or lawnmower all you had to do was pinch the hose closed, lift the can, insert the hose, and release the pinch until you were near full, then reverse the process. I had this process down by the time I was eight years old. I didn’t start spilling the gas all over the saw and the ground until the government tried to save me from myself with complicated spring-loaded contraptions.)

My 2018 Ford pickup is equipped with alarm bells that notify me of EVERYTHING. They even warn me if I put the truck in reverse, or I have the brake set. There’s simply no way to quietly start the truck and drive off. There’s an unavoidable symphony of idiot bells and gongs no matter what I do. It’s all irritating. Do I need an alarm system to notify me when I’m approaching a steep staircase, or I’m preparing to cross a parking lot or an intersection on foot?

Life is dangerous, and none of us are getting out of it alive.

And if you’re too stupid to learn how to pour gas from a can, maybe you should not be near dangerous powered machinery?

Our family had a large ranch. There are 10,000 ways to die on a ranch. Most of us survived.

My dad taught me to drive a small, manual, utility tractor pulling a wagon when I was 7 years old. During the trailer hook-up process he taught me how to estimate the hitch line-up, get close, then put the tractor in neutral, set the brake, and go look at the distance and direction between the hitch and connection. Then he taught me to go get back on the tractor and look down to find a unique pebble, twig, or leaf that was about the same distance and direction from a mark on the tractor frame, so I could use it to estimate my progress as I backed up. By the time I was eight I almost never had to get off the tractor more than once to line up a hitch. When I started driving our ranch pickup trucks two years later I used the same technique, but that required having the driver’s door slightly ajar, so I could see the ground. That’s how I hooked up trailers of every sort, thousands and thousands of times, for more than fifty years — until I bought my 2019 JL, and the handy “auto-park” feature engaged itself. I wasn’t being reckless or trying to look cool. I was trying to hook up a log splitter. It pissed me off.

Now I’m using the backup camera to align trailers, of course, and it’s easy. It’s clearly better than the technique I learned as a kid, but I resent nanny features that are engineered to save me from myself, and many other thinking people feel the same way.

It’s a shame somebody managed to kill herself by running herself over with her Jeep. In a fair and rational world, that’s not Jeep’s fault, and it doesn’t merit “auto-park”.

Consider the following list of amazing ways people have managed to kill themselves, then imagine the list of government and corporate solutions you might design, all at great expense, to make each way of killing yourself impossible.

I‘d rather take care of myself, but the expectation of personal responsibility is less popular every generation.

  1. Falling out of bed - 450 people per year die after falling out of bed;
  2. Randy Llanes impaled on the bill of a swordfish;
  3. Falling off a ladder and landing head first in a water bucket;
  4. Man killed by his own explosive while trying to steal from a condom dispenser;
  5. Hit by a coconut falling off a tree, approximately 150 people each year are killed by coconuts;
  6. Man died after being stabbed in the eye with an umbrella;
  7. Teenager taking a selfie with a loaded handgun shot himself in the throat;
  8. US cyclist, Troy Earl Smith Jr, shot himself to death with gun carried in his breast pocket;
  9. Man crushed while moving a fridge freezer;
  10. Undertaker Marc Bourjade crushed by his own coffins
  11. Crushed by your partner;
  12. In 1975, Alex Mitchell laughed so hard at The Goodies 'Ecky Thump' episode that he died of heart failure;
  13. Man run over by his own vehicle; (sound familiar?)
  14. Texan Michael Warner, 58, died of a lethal Sherry enema;
  15. King Adolf Frederick of Sweden - the King who ate himself to death;
  16. 24 people each year are killed by champagne corks;
  17. Strangled by neckties or scarves;
  18. Barry Pilgrim trampled by cattle in the Derbyshire;
  19. Peggye McNair and Mark Mere - trampled to death by camels on a farm;
  20. Alexandru Pop, 46, eaten by a drove of pigs;
  21. Spectator deaths - hit by golf ball, cricket ball, racing/rally car or motorcycle;
  22. Roger Wallace was killed by his own remote controlled plane
  23. Stepping backwards off cliff or similar to help photographer get you in frame;
  24. Falling from the top of a lighthouse;
  25. Falling off an inflatable artwork;
  26. Drowning in a barrel of mead;
  27. Drinking too much water;
  28. Killed by an industrial firework placed on head;
  29. Eating too many carrots;
  30. Swung by your ankles by a clown and hitting your head - William Snyder died age 13 in 1854;
  31. Falling off a theatre balcony;
  32. Hit by a piece of falling scaffolding;
  33. Crushed by giant bale of hay falling on your van;
  34. Hit by bullets fired in celebration;
  35. Falling out of a tree;
  36. Walking through a closed glass door and being cut to death;
  37. Drowning in the bath;
  38. Car engine bonnet shutting on your head;
  39. Heading a medicine ball;
  40. Stabbed during argument over game of Ludo;
  41. Falling on to wine glass and cutting neck;
  42. Kicked by a horse;
  43. Burned to death while making a barbecue from an oil drum.
  44. Dropping weights on yourself while doing presses.
  45. Owner of the world's longest beard tripped on it and broke his neck
  46. American lawyer Clement Vallandigham shot himself in a court room in 1871 while showing the jury how his client’s alleged murder victim had actually shot himself;
  47. Eight people were killed in the London Beer Flood of 1814, when 135,000 gallons of ale burst out of the Meux and Company Brewery on Tottenham Court Road;
  48. Death by carrot juice overdose. Basil Brown drank 10 gallons of juice in 10 days - overdosing on Vitamin A and suffering severe liver damage.
WOW. Lay it out there!! :surprised::clap:
 

Killed by Death

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Now tell me, was that a wise design change? Ditching a shifter that gives you haptic feedback for something which requires an additional step to confirm that it registered your selection? You automatic drivers now have Autopark because of it.
Wise NO, "Autopark" is a Jeep thing. My BMW M2 has an unconventional return to center shifter and it just dings if you open a door.
 

Rescue119

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my 2015 Ram 1500 had auto park, my 2019 Pacifica has autopark, my wifes 2021 CG L has autopark. its not new and not going away.

speaking of law suites

so I owned a dodge dakota RT with the 5.9l 2 dr bought new in 1998 (was a 99 model)

drove it for about 1.5 years. loved it (young and single) got a letter in the mail from chrysler or whatever it was called then i cant keep track.

there was a complete recall. reason was false advertising for towing cap.

because it was a 5.9l it had the power and torque to pull i think (dont remember) was around either 8k or 10k pounds. im leaning towards 8k.

but me having common sense (which isnt that common) knows that this small truck doesn't weigh much and you never to at max cap.

anyways short story long someone in the USA towed a trailer at the 8k or 10k limit. whatever it was and going down a mountain the trailer took over and killed the person(s). the family sued and won

so they had to offer to buy back the trucks which included any items you may have purchase for it as well due to it being reduced down to 5k lbs cap.

so i basically drove the truck for free for 1.5 years. I took the money and ran lol.

thats why hair dryers have stickers saying do not use in bath tub. because its all about liabilities now and companies covering there own ass.
 

multicam

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Wise NO, "Autopark" is a Jeep thing. My BMW M2 has an unconventional return to center shifter and it just dings if you open a door.
Yeah I never said it was federally mandated or anything, FCA (at the time) just decided Autopark was going to be their fix.

Anyway, stay safe in your rolling death trap... I mean bimmer ;)
 

sentience

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I don’t think you get it.

I’ll apologize in advance for the long rant, but this topic really hits a nerve for me…

We older guys grew up in a world where one tragedy didn’t automatically result in government or corporate intervention to save us from ourselves. For most of us, all the expensive, poorly designed, idiot-protection contrivances are downright irritating, and the world is dominated by them, particularly in the US. Many of them, like the spring-loaded, half-twist, triple-sow-cow, spouts on portable gas cans don’t work as well as the simple 1940s versions they forcibly replaced. (The old gas can spouts were made of a soft, pliable, rubber. To fill a saw, mini bike, or lawnmower all you had to do was pinch the hose closed, lift the can, insert the hose, and release the pinch until you were near full, then reverse the process. I had this process down by the time I was eight years old. I didn’t start spilling the gas all over the saw and the ground until the government tried to save me from myself with complicated spring-loaded contraptions.)

My 2018 Ford pickup is equipped with alarm bells that notify me of EVERYTHING. They even warn me if I put the truck in reverse, or I have the brake set. There’s simply no way to quietly start the truck and drive off. There’s an unavoidable symphony of idiot bells and gongs no matter what I do. It’s all irritating. Do I need an alarm system to notify me when I’m approaching a steep staircase, or I’m preparing to cross a parking lot or an intersection on foot?

Life is dangerous, and none of us are getting out of it alive.

And if you’re too stupid to learn how to pour gas from a can, maybe you should not be near dangerous powered machinery?

Our family had a large ranch. There are 10,000 ways to die on a ranch. Most of us survived.

My dad taught me to drive a small, manual, utility tractor pulling a wagon when I was 7 years old. During the trailer hook-up process he taught me how to estimate the hitch line-up, get close, then put the tractor in neutral, set the brake, and go look at the distance and direction between the hitch and connection. Then he taught me to go get back on the tractor and look down to find a unique pebble, twig, or leaf that was about the same distance and direction from a mark on the tractor frame, so I could use it to estimate my progress as I backed up. By the time I was eight I almost never had to get off the tractor more than once to line up a hitch. When I started driving our ranch pickup trucks two years later I used the same technique, but that required having the driver’s door slightly ajar, so I could see the ground. That’s how I hooked up trailers of every sort, thousands and thousands of times, for more than fifty years — until I bought my 2019 JL, and the handy “auto-park” feature engaged itself. I wasn’t being reckless or trying to look cool. I was trying to hook up a log splitter. It pissed me off.

Now I’m using the backup camera to align trailers, of course, and it’s easy. It’s clearly better than the technique I learned as a kid, but I resent nanny features that are engineered to save me from myself, and many other thinking people feel the same way.

It’s a shame somebody managed to kill herself by running herself over with her Jeep. In a fair and rational world, that’s not Jeep’s fault, and it doesn’t merit “auto-park”.

Consider the following list of amazing ways people have managed to kill themselves, then imagine the list of government and corporate solutions you might design, all at great expense, to make each way of killing yourself impossible.

I‘d rather take care of myself, but the expectation of personal responsibility is less popular every generation.

  1. Falling out of bed - 450 people per year die after falling out of bed;
  2. Randy Llanes impaled on the bill of a swordfish;
  3. Falling off a ladder and landing head first in a water bucket;
  4. Man killed by his own explosive while trying to steal from a condom dispenser;
  5. Hit by a coconut falling off a tree, approximately 150 people each year are killed by coconuts;
  6. Man died after being stabbed in the eye with an umbrella;
  7. Teenager taking a selfie with a loaded handgun shot himself in the throat;
  8. US cyclist, Troy Earl Smith Jr, shot himself to death with gun carried in his breast pocket;
  9. Man crushed while moving a fridge freezer;
  10. Undertaker Marc Bourjade crushed by his own coffins
  11. Crushed by your partner;
  12. In 1975, Alex Mitchell laughed so hard at The Goodies 'Ecky Thump' episode that he died of heart failure;
  13. Man run over by his own vehicle; (sound familiar?)
  14. Texan Michael Warner, 58, died of a lethal Sherry enema;
  15. King Adolf Frederick of Sweden - the King who ate himself to death;
  16. 24 people each year are killed by champagne corks;
  17. Strangled by neckties or scarves;
  18. Barry Pilgrim trampled by cattle in the Derbyshire;
  19. Peggye McNair and Mark Mere - trampled to death by camels on a farm;
  20. Alexandru Pop, 46, eaten by a drove of pigs;
  21. Spectator deaths - hit by golf ball, cricket ball, racing/rally car or motorcycle;
  22. Roger Wallace was killed by his own remote controlled plane
  23. Stepping backwards off cliff or similar to help photographer get you in frame;
  24. Falling from the top of a lighthouse;
  25. Falling off an inflatable artwork;
  26. Drowning in a barrel of mead;
  27. Drinking too much water;
  28. Killed by an industrial firework placed on head;
  29. Eating too many carrots;
  30. Swung by your ankles by a clown and hitting your head - William Snyder died age 13 in 1854;
  31. Falling off a theatre balcony;
  32. Hit by a piece of falling scaffolding;
  33. Crushed by giant bale of hay falling on your van;
  34. Hit by bullets fired in celebration;
  35. Falling out of a tree;
  36. Walking through a closed glass door and being cut to death;
  37. Drowning in the bath;
  38. Car engine bonnet shutting on your head;
  39. Heading a medicine ball;
  40. Stabbed during argument over game of Ludo;
  41. Falling on to wine glass and cutting neck;
  42. Kicked by a horse;
  43. Burned to death while making a barbecue from an oil drum.
  44. Dropping weights on yourself while doing presses.
  45. Owner of the world's longest beard tripped on it and broke his neck
  46. American lawyer Clement Vallandigham shot himself in a court room in 1871 while showing the jury how his client’s alleged murder victim had actually shot himself;
  47. Eight people were killed in the London Beer Flood of 1814, when 135,000 gallons of ale burst out of the Meux and Company Brewery on Tottenham Court Road;
  48. Death by carrot juice overdose. Basil Brown drank 10 gallons of juice in 10 days - overdosing on Vitamin A and suffering severe liver damage.
Had a mid-2000’s Ford Escape as a fleet vehicle. I can still hear that cascading symphony of chimes in my sleep.

They also used it to indicate multiple things, so it wasn’t always immediately apparent what was actually wrong with the vehicle without double checking the driver’s cluster. Door? Seatbelt? Gas cap? Who knows.

Fun fact, you can get it as a ringtone now. Experience the excitement at your own peril:

https://www.zedge.net/find/ringtones/ford chime
 

frogger2020

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Use the backup camera. It’s dead ass accurate.
Auto park has been on all Chrysler products including dodge pickups for years.
Can’t use the backup camera when pulling the trailer, something blocks it.
 

Reinen

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I’ll be god damned if I close the door and put my seatbelt on every time I want to move that trailer an extra 2” here or there.
lol, no you won't be god damned. You'll just be auto parked. Because you shouldn't do dumb shit like that. All you need to do is close the door and drive like a normal person. It also makes your side view mirror work a lot better.
 
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