Sboden

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The real question is do you still get the max Hp/Torque once the battery is depleted.:movember:
Depleted for the battery per software still means there is 15% left, so you can still get the acceleration part. If it gets below that, the E Torque system is charging the battery.





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Jeeperz Kreeperz

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The $7500 rebate is dependent upon what your tax liability is prior to any refunds or payments from/to the government. If you have a pension, you very well may not qualify as you are not paying as much in taxes over the year. If I remember right, you need $12,000 in tax obligation to qualify for the rebate. In other words, many will qualify but not everyone. Many will qualify because the vehicle costs enough money that you would generally need income that causes over $12,000 in tax obligation.
This is partially correct. However, the part about “if I remember right, you need $12,000 in tax obligation to qualify...” Is incorrect. Actually, the amount of tax obligation you need to qualify for the full $7,500 tax credit is exactly $7,500 of tax liability. If your tax liability is, say, $7,499, then you would be eligible for a $7,499 tax credit. In other words, this credit is what the IRS refers to as a non-refundable credit. It can offset your tax liability up to the full $7,500, OR your total tax liability - WHICHEVER IS LESS. This does NOT mean that this credit can not increase your tax refund. It absolutely can - provided you have sufficient tax liability. What it means is this credit can not generate a refund to you that exceeds your tax liability plus any payments you made.

It’s also incorrect to assume that a person with a pension would not qualify because “...you are not paying as much in taxes over the year.” First of all, I work with clients who have 6-figure pensions, and they pay (and owe) plenty of taxes. Second, you can adjust your withholding to pay any amount you like. Third, it’s actually not what you ”pay” that even matters when determining your tax credit eligibility, it is your “tax liability”. If I “pay” $20,000 during the year, but have a tax liability of $0, then I get zero tax credit, and get a refund of $20,000 (my full overpayment).

Here are a couple hypothetical examples:

1. Your tax liability for the year is $10,000. You have withholding and other tax payments of $8,000 during the year. So, without a credit, you would normally be looking at a net tax due of $2,000. You qualify for the full $7,500 tax credit (because your tax liability of $10,000 exceeds the $7,500). Subtract your $2,000 tax bill from your $7,500 tax credit, and your tax refund at filing time would be $5,500. Looked at another way, your total payments plus tax credit is $15,500 ($8,000 withholding plus $7,500 credit). Subtract your tax liability of $10,000 from that $15,500 = $5,500 tax refund.

2. You are retired, only receiving social security and some taxable income from IRA/401k/403b, etc. Your tax liability for the year is only $2,500. You had withholding and payments of $3,500. Without the tax credit, you would be looking at a tax refund of $1,000. You only qualify for a tax credit of $2,500 (credit can not exceed your tax liability). Your refund would be $3,500 (this is your $1,000 refund that you are due anyway because you overpaid, plus your $2,500 tax credit). The prudent strategy for this person is typically to “create” income for them prior to 12/31 of the year in which the EV was purchased. This income might be created via IRA/401k/403b distributions (assuming they are over age 59.5), or via Roth conversions (typically a better approach for those under age 59.5) . If you can generate enough income like this so that the tax liability for the year exceeds $7,500, then you’ve successfully “absorbed” the full credit, and either paid zero tax on an IRA distribution, or you paid zero tax to convert funds to a permanently tax-exempt Roth. Sweet deal.

For reference, I perform dozens of these calculations and optimize tax brackets for clients every year.

Disclaimer: This is not personalized tax advice. Everyone’s situation is unique. This is simply a reference to show you how this generally works. Please review this issue with your tax advisor BEFORE you move forward.


FYI: I see a number of tax questions bouncing around in this thread. There is another thread already dedicated to this tax credit question. For those of you who are still trying to figure this out, you might want to check it out here:

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...hints-by-someone-who-has-done-it-twice.63478/

Hope this helps someone!
 
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Sboden

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This is partially correct. However, the part about “if I remember right, you need $12,000 in tax obligation to qualify...” Is incorrect. Actually, the amount of tax obligation you need to qualify for the full $7,500 tax credit is exactly $7,500 of tax liability. If your tax liability is, say, $7,499, then you would be eligible for a $7,499 tax credit. In other words, this credit is what the IRS refers to as a non-refundable credit. It can offset your tax liability up to the full $7,500, OR your total tax liability - WHICHEVER IS LESS. This does NOT mean that this credit can not increase your tax refund. It absolutely can - provided you have sufficient tax liability. What it means is this credit can not generate a refund to you that exceeds your tax liability plus any payments you made.

It’s also incorrect to assume that a person with a pension would not qualify because “...you are not paying as much in taxes over the year.” First of all, I work with clients who have 6-figure pensions, and they pay (and owe) plenty of taxes. Second, you can adjust your withholding to pay any amount you like. Third, it’s actually not what you ”pay” that even matters when determining your tax credit eligibility, it is your “tax liability”. If I “pay” $20,000 during the year, but have a tax liability of $0, then I get zero tax credit, and get a refund of $20,000 (my full overpayment).

Here are a couple hypothetical examples:

1. Your tax liability for the year is $10,000. You have withholding and other tax payments of $8,000 during the year. So, without a credit, you would normally be looking at a net tax due of $2,000. You qualify for the full $7,500 tax credit (because your tax liability of $10,000 exceeds the $7,500). Subtract your $2,000 tax bill from your $7,500 tax credit, and your tax refund at filing time would be $5,500. Looked at another way, your total payments plus tax credit is $15,500 ($8,000 withholding plus $7,500 credit). Subtract your tax liability of $10,000 from that $15,500 = $5,500 tax refund.

2. You are retired, only receiving social security and some taxable income from IRA/401k/403b, etc. Your tax liability for the year is only $2,500. You had withholding and payments of $3,500. Without the tax credit, you would be looking at a tax refund of $1,000. You only qualify for a tax credit of $2,500 (credit can not exceed your tax liability). Your refund would be $3,500 (this is your $1,000 refund that you are due anyway because you overpaid, plus your $2,500 tax credit). The prudent strategy for this person is typically to “create” income for them prior to 12/31 of the year in which the EV was purchased. This income might be created via IRA/401k/403b distributions (assuming they are over age 59.5), or via Roth conversions (typically a better approach for those under age 59.5) . If you can generate enough income like this so that the tax liability for the year exceeds $7,500, then you’ve successfully “absorbed” the full credit, and either paid zero tax on an IRA distribution, or you paid zero tax to convert funds to a permanently tax-exempt Roth. Sweet deal.

For reference, I perform dozens of these calculations and optimize tax brackets for clients every year.

Disclaimer: This is not personalized tax advice. Everyone’s situation is unique. This is simply a reference to show you how this generally works. Please review this issue with your tax advisor BEFORE you move forward.


FYI: I see a number of tax questions bouncing around in this thread. There is another thread already dedicated to this tax credit question. For those of you who are still trying to figure this out, you might want to check it out here:

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...hints-by-someone-who-has-done-it-twice.63478/

Hope this helps someone!
I agree. I qualified my amount of tax obligation basically saying I'm not for sure. On the other part, I stated, "You very well may not qualify...". In the case of the person I was talking about, he doesn't qualify because of a pension. If I was to retire today with only my pension and taxed at single rate, I would qualify but there are others I work with who wouldn't qualify.
 

99ls1tj

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This is partially correct. However, the part about “if I remember right, you need $12,000 in tax obligation to qualify...” Is incorrect. Actually, the amount of tax obligation you need to qualify for the full $7,500 tax credit is exactly $7,500 of tax liability. If your tax liability is, say, $7,499, then you would be eligible for a $7,499 tax credit. In other words, this credit is what the IRS refers to as a non-refundable credit. It can offset your tax liability up to the full $7,500, OR your total tax liability - WHICHEVER IS LESS. This does NOT mean that this credit can not increase your tax refund. It absolutely can - provided you have sufficient tax liability. What it means is this credit can not generate a refund to you that exceeds your tax liability plus any payments you made.

It’s also incorrect to assume that a person with a pension would not qualify because “...you are not paying as much in taxes over the year.” First of all, I work with clients who have 6-figure pensions, and they pay (and owe) plenty of taxes. Second, you can adjust your withholding to pay any amount you like. Third, it’s actually not what you ”pay” that even matters when determining your tax credit eligibility, it is your “tax liability”. If I “pay” $20,000 during the year, but have a tax liability of $0, then I get zero tax credit, and get a refund of $20,000 (my full overpayment).

Here are a couple hypothetical examples:

1. Your tax liability for the year is $10,000. You have withholding and other tax payments of $8,000 during the year. So, without a credit, you would normally be looking at a net tax due of $2,000. You qualify for the full $7,500 tax credit (because your tax liability of $10,000 exceeds the $7,500). Subtract your $2,000 tax bill from your $7,500 tax credit, and your tax refund at filing time would be $5,500. Looked at another way, your total payments plus tax credit is $15,500 ($8,000 withholding plus $7,500 credit). Subtract your tax liability of $10,000 from that $15,500 = $5,500 tax refund.

2. You are retired, only receiving social security and some taxable income from IRA/401k/403b, etc. Your tax liability for the year is only $2,500. You had withholding and payments of $3,500. Without the tax credit, you would be looking at a tax refund of $1,000. You only qualify for a tax credit of $2,500 (credit can not exceed your tax liability). Your refund would be $3,500 (this is your $1,000 refund that you are due anyway because you overpaid, plus your $2,500 tax credit). The prudent strategy for this person is typically to “create” income for them prior to 12/31 of the year in which the EV was purchased. This income might be created via IRA/401k/403b distributions (assuming they are over age 59.5), or via Roth conversions (typically a better approach for those under age 59.5) . If you can generate enough income like this so that the tax liability for the year exceeds $7,500, then you’ve successfully “absorbed” the full credit, and either paid zero tax on an IRA distribution, or you paid zero tax to convert funds to a permanently tax-exempt Roth. Sweet deal.

For reference, I perform dozens of these calculations and optimize tax brackets for clients every year.

Disclaimer: This is not personalized tax advice. Everyone’s situation is unique. This is simply a reference to show you how this generally works. Please review this issue with your tax advisor BEFORE you move forward.


FYI: I see a number of tax questions bouncing around in this thread. There is another thread already dedicated to this tax credit question. For those of you who are still trying to figure this out, you might want to check it out here:

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...hints-by-someone-who-has-done-it-twice.63478/

Hope this helps someone!

Exactly the way I understood it, but thank you for taking the time to explain. There's a lot of misinformation floating around regarding the tax credit.
 

stylett9

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Unless I’m missing something, I feel like this 4xe is turning out to be a gimmick. Yes I understand you can go 21 miles on pure electricity, but there is there no mechanical function like a conventional hybrid system where the engine can recharge the battery?
For example, a Prius prime can get something like 100mpge, but if you don’t charge the battery, it can still do 55mpg as a regular hybrid.
 
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Unless I’m missing something, I feel like this 4xe is turning out to be a gimmick. Yes I understand you can go 21 miles on pure electricity, but there is there no mechanical function like a conventional hybrid system where the engine can recharge the battery?
For example, a Prius prime can get something like 100mpge, but if you don’t charge the battery, it can still do 55mpg as a regular hybrid.
It can recharge the battery using the engine in E-Save mode, but it will hurt your fuel economy because, you know, physics. Energy in = energy out. This mode is kinda a gimmick for U.S. users, but internationally it's useful as some cities are going full ban on ICE engines, so being able to charge the battery on the way to such a destination is useful. Also useful if you want to do electric only on trails for more of a quiet run.

In standard hybrid mode, it will use the battery as much as possible, depending on charge and power requirements from driver input. It will also use regenerative braking to charge the battery, just like a Prius. It even has a mode called "Max Regen" which makes it operate like a golf cart or Tesla, where releasing the gas pedal causes it to slow down much quicker to put energy back into the battery. This is more efficient than standard regenerative braking from using the brake pedal, but will take some time to get used to.

Simply from its design it won't match a Prius Prime, but it's also not designed to. The entire point of a Prius to is be efficient and sip fuel and electric power. But what Prius can do the Rubicon Trail? All about compromises, and I know for my use case it is exactly what I want, as it makes the Wrangler a much better daily driver while still being some of the most fun you can have on four wheels.
 

JeepAdmin

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You guys are getting numbers wrong. This vehicle is rated as 52mpg city and 45mpg highway. It’s only rating of 20mpg is when in gas mode only. When in HYBRID mode, the battery won’t ever run out. It can be in HYBRID mode forever, meaning you’ll always get the 45+mpgs. The battery charges by regenerative brakes and the alternator.

This will be the ultimate Wrangler for those who want their Jeep as a daily driver and also have a decent commute. I drive 60 miles a day so 17mpgs has been the deal breaker for me on Wranglers. This will do nicely.
 

eLECTRICON

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You guys are getting numbers wrong. This vehicle is rated as 52mpg city and 45mpg highway. It’s only rating of 20mpg is when in gas mode only. When in HYBRID mode, the battery won’t ever run out. It can be in HYBRID mode forever, meaning you’ll always get the 45+mpgs. The battery charges by regenerative brakes and the alternator.

This will be the ultimate Wrangler for those who want their Jeep as a daily driver and also have a decent commute. I drive 60 miles a day so 17mpgs has been the deal breaker for me on Wranglers. This will do nicely.
+1 This is true and was already stated by the pre-production model test drivers.
 

Xcoaste

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You guys are getting numbers wrong. This vehicle is rated as 52mpg city and 45mpg highway. It’s only rating of 20mpg is when in gas mode only. When in HYBRID mode, the battery won’t ever run out. It can be in HYBRID mode forever, meaning you’ll always get the 45+mpgs. The battery charges by regenerative brakes and the alternator.

This will be the ultimate Wrangler for those who want their Jeep as a daily driver and also have a decent commute. I drive 60 miles a day so 17mpgs has been the deal breaker for me on Wranglers. This will do nicely.
Source please?
 

av8or

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There is zero chance of it getting 45 mpg on the hwy. it’s gonna be around 20 mpg hwy.
 

Jonnie4xe

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You guys are getting numbers wrong. This vehicle is rated as 52mpg city and 45mpg highway. It’s only rating of 20mpg is when in gas mode only. When in HYBRID mode, the battery won’t ever run out. It can be in HYBRID mode forever, meaning you’ll always get the 45+mpgs. The battery charges by regenerative brakes and the alternator.

This will be the ultimate Wrangler for those who want their Jeep as a daily driver and also have a decent commute. I drive 60 miles a day so 17mpgs has been the deal breaker for me on Wranglers. This will do nicely.
This is definitely inaccurate for long trips. The 49 MPGe is either for the first 21 to 22 miles of all electric or perhaps a 100 mile trip (which would be fantastic news but I suspect not as per below). After that, you will trend down towards the 20 MPG number depending on the length of the trip.

Just look at the MPGe data for the BMW i3 Rex
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=37222

Does it get 117 MPGe with long trips? No it does not. It gets 88 MPGe, because it starts using its 2 gallon tank.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent

What is confusing to me is that the label on fueleconomy.gov says it measures the MPGE for 100 miles but then says ".0" gallons of gas used. It also says "22 miles" below the green arrow. So was this measured for 100 miles or just 22 miles? Either way, the ".0" is clearly a typo and should be corrected. If the ".0" is really just "0" then the 49 MPGe rating was for 22 miles and you are not getting anywhere near that if you drive 60 miles without recharging during the day.

Screen Shot 2021-03-23 at 9.15.26 AM.png


Still, I'm very happy with the 49 number and the 21 miles of electric range since I do many short trips, although I would have been happier with the marketed 25 miles of range.
 
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greensprit

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You guys are getting numbers wrong. This vehicle is rated as 52mpg city and 45mpg highway. It’s only rating of 20mpg is when in gas mode only. When in HYBRID mode, the battery won’t ever run out. It can be in HYBRID mode forever, meaning you’ll always get the 45+mpgs. The battery charges by regenerative brakes and the alternator.

This will be the ultimate Wrangler for those who want their Jeep as a daily driver and also have a decent commute. I drive 60 miles a day so 17mpgs has been the deal breaker for me on Wranglers. This will do nicely.
Some folks are going to be really disappointed if this is what they believe. The Wrangler is no Prius, it has the aerodynamics of a brick and the rolling resistance of putty (relative to a Prius) - basic physics at play here; there's only so much efficiency you can get out of a drivetrain. Highway fuel economy will reflect that - will be very similar to the 2.0 Wrangler on long drives.

The only way PHEV concept works is if you plug it in every night and drive primarily on electric only.
The fact that it can do 20 miles on electric only is perfect for my use case (10 miles to work and free charging at work); so I'm still buying one. With full knowledge that once I pass that 20 miles, its fuel economy will look similar to 2.0 wrangler. Oh, and the additional electric power off the line is a nice perk!
 

stylett9

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It can recharge the battery using the engine in E-Save mode, but it will hurt your fuel economy because, you know, physics. Energy in = energy out. This mode is kinda a gimmick for U.S. users, but internationally it's useful as some cities are going full ban on ICE engines, so being able to charge the battery on the way to such a destination is useful. Also useful if you want to do electric only on trails for more of a quiet run.

In standard hybrid mode, it will use the battery as much as possible, depending on charge and power requirements from driver input. It will also use regenerative braking to charge the battery, just like a Prius. It even has a mode called "Max Regen" which makes it operate like a golf cart or Tesla, where releasing the gas pedal causes it to slow down much quicker to put energy back into the battery. This is more efficient than standard regenerative braking from using the brake pedal, but will take some time to get used to.

Simply from its design it won't match a Prius Prime, but it's also not designed to. The entire point of a Prius to is be efficient and sip fuel and electric power. But what Prius can do the Rubicon Trail? All about compromises, and I know for my use case it is exactly what I want, as it makes the Wrangler a much better daily driver while still being some of the most fun you can have on four wheels.
I completely understand this is not going to be even close to a Prius in terms of fuel economy. For context, I have a Honda Accord hybrid. My confusion is that historically, plug in hybrids get great mpge because you plug in and start with a full battery. However as the battery gets used and the hybrid system has to regenerate itself, you venture into “conventional” mpg territory, hence my example of a Prius plug in vs a regular Prius. What I’m reading from the original numbers (estimating average of 20mpg) , is that “IF” you don’t plug in, there is NO efficiency gain over the standard 2.0 turbo. I would have expected the hybrid system, even a poor one, to at least increase 5-7mpg.
 

greensprit

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I completely understand this is not going to be even close to a Prius in terms of fuel economy. For context, I have a Honda Accord hybrid. My confusion is that historically, plug in hybrids get great mpge because you plug in and start with a full battery. However as the battery gets used and the hybrid system has to regenerate itself, you venture into “conventional” mpg territory, hence my example of a Prius plug in vs a regular Prius. What I’m reading from the original numbers (estimating average of 20mpg) , is that “IF” you don’t plug in, there is NO efficiency gain over the standard 2.0 turbo. I would have expected the hybrid system, even a poor one, to at least increase 5-7mpg.
Remember that the "standard 2.0 turbo" already is a mild hybrid system; it's already benefiting from start/stop and some regenerative braking and some electric assist off the line with the etorque system. The EPA classifies it as a mild-hybrid system. So the 4xe *when not plugged in* will do worse than the 2.0 mild hybrid because it's lugging around hundreds of pounds of battery that is "dead weight".

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=41765
 

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