...2020 PHEV: but is it "worth it"

  1. Rahneld

    Rahneld Banned

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    My biases: I am green leaning. And even I question whether this is good news:

    I'm excited about the 2020 Wrangler PHEV (plug in hybrid electric vehicle). But I'd be more excited if I had solar panels that charged it at no additional cost.

    I'm dying to see at what price point FCA offers this at. Even with the *up to* $7,500 US Tax Rebate though, I'm wondering if it's worth it.

    Of course "worth it" takes on many meanings. There's the "financial worth it," in the sense that liquid fuel savings (depending on price) eventually makes for some break even point down the time line for the consumer, but how far down?

    Then there's the "I'm doing good by global warming," worth it. But am I? A Wrangler user that tends to do more frequent but less lengthy trips could run off of electric far more often than those putting in serious mileage. Such short trip users could then plug it in between trips (and again, for most of us, the margin cost of electric is not $0.) But unless you're buying green electric off the grid, you're electric is also been produced by hydrocarbons....even if--fair point--the utility's power plant is loads more efficient than any individual's power plant.

    Then there's batteries and water. The people at FCA have that much more of a challenge to make this work in an off roading vehicle more likely to be subjected to the elements. But one plus in the "is it worth it column," at least to the off roading community, is the potential for smoother torque.

    ...and by the way, once that ICE engine kicks in, forget about good MPG. I just can't see it. You're lugging around all that additional battery weight. It's bound to effect payload/towing capacity and delivery really poor MPGs when the ICE engine is on. Even if electric were free, I'd like to see what overall MPG estimates are, factoring in use of the electric propulsion for about the first 30 miles off charged batteries.

    And to all of those who think "green first," even if the 2020 PHEV proved quite the green vehicle from a CO2 vantage point, remember that much of the global warming tradeoff is putting parts of dead batteries into the ground being the lessor of two evils over putting CO2 into the air.

    I found this video intriguing. Sure it's about another make and model PHEV, in another country with different pricing and governmental incentives. But many of the principles that make the PHEV of that video less than appealing may apply to the Wrangler.



    I hope that the price point and math that demonstrate typical usage show the 2020 Wrangler PHEV to have a realist and relatively quickly achieved break even point.
     
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  2. multicam

    multicam Well-Known Member

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    I anticipate that reaching that break-even point will take a while. I wouldn’t want to be an early adopter of this new tech unless I was leasing. I’m already leary enough about having a Jeep with ESS and an aux battery...
     
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  3. ThirtyOne

    ThirtyOne Well-Known Member

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    You didn't even mention the possibility of instant torque which could be one of the benefits off-road.

    I totally agree about leasing. The financial equation is different and the long-term reliability would not be an issue.

    Obviously we need a lot more information.

    In general, I think of PHEV as a transition technology with all the cost and complexity of supporting both an ICE and electric engine.
     
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  4. Euro JEEP

    Euro JEEP Well-Known Member

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    In Europe, FCA is buying the zero emissions excess from Tesla (=zero emissions) to avoid high fines for not complying with their fleet emission’s average.
     
  5. cbrenthus

    cbrenthus Well-Known Member

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    My wife and I looked at a Pacifica PHEV and were not impressed. I didn't watch the video, but here are my reasons I wouldn't buy a PHEV Pacific or Wrangler:

    1. Only worth the extra money with the tax credit. If they're so great, why does the government have to pay me to buy one?
    2. First Impression - way too much going on in the dash. Too many gauges for battery vs fuel etc.
    3. 33 mile range on electric isn't much - and if you go on the Pacifica forums you'll find nobody is getting even that.
    4. This is a big one for me - on the test drive the sales guy told my wife to floor it and feel the ICE kick in. It did, and worked as intended, but as an old school engine guy I do NOT like an ICE kicking on from dead cold to full throttle immediately without any warm up.
    5. In the case of the Pacifica, you lose the storage in front of the middle seats / ability to fold the middle seats down
    6. Battery replacement and everything that comes with that
    7. At the end of the day, the fuel mileage really ins't that better, I think 1 mpg on the highway, after you've burnt up your <33 mile range

    If we really wanted to curb emissions, we'd go back to a 55mph speed limit. My '11 Camaro SS, '13 Mustang GT, and current 20 yo 140K mile '98 Trans Am, all cruise well over 30mpgs when going 55-60 ;)
     
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  6. Sean L

    Sean L Well-Known Member

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    I think its all on your perspective.

    If its all about "Saving Money" you're better off buying a 10 year old Prius because buying anything new is a lot more money than an old beater.

    My perspective isn't about the type of "investment" I'm making in a depreciating asset... Its an expense, not something that's going to make money (unless you use it for work)

    I support steady incremental improvements for all vehicles across the board, be it small cars or Jeeps and large pickups. I am not delusional enough to think a full hybrid Wrangler will get huge MPGs but it should still be an improvement over the non hybrid. Even better for those of us that have shorter commutes to work.
     
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  7. TXJeepScientist

    TXJeepScientist Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't get caught up with the $7500 tax credit. The tax credit got cut under the new tax code and from my understanding how the tax credits work, you have to owe the Federal Government money.

    I had friend that just bought a Tesla and he was a little miffed with the tax credits because he didn't owe the government enough money to get the full tax credit.

    I think in 2019, the tax credit goes down to $3750.

    The battery is an other can of worms. My understanding is that the ion batteries are very flammable when they are punctured. So they better be well protected when off-loading.

    With the doom and gloom out of the way, don't be surprised if Tesla merges with FCA in a few years. Tesla has just sold a bunch of "carbon" credits to FCA.
     
  8. ThirtyOne

    ThirtyOne Well-Known Member

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    Even 28 miles would cover all my driving most days. Depending on the details it may make financial sense. But I like driving a manual Jeep so this wouldn't be for me.
     
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    Rahneld

    Rahneld Banned

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    I could have been clearer buddy. It's what I meant when I said smoother torque for the off roaders.

    I agree with your take : - )
     
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  10. Jeeper Fever

    Jeeper Fever Well-Known Member

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    You ever see the condition on a ten year old Prius?

    Makes an ass beat donkey look hale and hearty.
     
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  11. ThirtyOne

    ThirtyOne Well-Known Member

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    Oops. Missed that.

    Every Wrangler that comes out should have improved capability in some way. The PHEV needs to do that. We will see if it does. if so then going to a gas station 4 times a year instead of 4 times a month and spewing less whatever just becomes a bonus.
     
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  12. Euro JEEP

    Euro JEEP Well-Known Member

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    As a Jeep lover, I also love nature and think we should care and preserve it the best we can. I would like to do that being able to enjoy it with the Jeep. So I don’t like full restrictions where off-roading becomes banned.

    That we need to go therefor to new propulsion types other than the fossil fuels? Probably.
    Is PHEV the way to go? Not sure. Does it have to be better, simpler, at least equally reliable and long lasting as what we have right now. Hell yeah!
    The settled auto industry doesn’t like sudden changes as it is a risk on their profits and control of their market share. Buying excess emissions to comply your own fleet average is not a long term solution. Not great for a brand image either?

    Do I think Jeep should have gone (or go) the Rivian way? Full electric 4x4, super powerful and descent mileage? Yes! At least have the option!
    (I know, Rivian is not in production yet but it is very promising)

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m a petrol head and love racing manuals! But we have to evolve and improve.

    Their is no automobile brand that embraces better nature and adventure in a vehicle than a Jeep.
    And for that reason it should be a leader there.

    Unfortunately for us end users I don’t think at the end of the day and taking everything into account, any solutions will actually be cheaper.
    Or we start generating our own electricity or that bill will keep rising exponentially!

    We are living in industry changing times! Look at how Harley-Davidson is testing and experimenting with electric bikes since years now. You can’t get much more revolutionary on such a traditional brand! Many will dislike it, yes, but overtime it will be embraced and they will survive!
    Adapt or you risk to disappear.

    I love Jeep
     
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  13. Sean L

    Sean L Well-Known Member

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    Like my brother's 10 year old Prius that's in pretty good shape?

    Regardless, even if you're buying a straight up beater 1st gen prius, its still a lot less money than a new Jeep. Now consider you might have to get another one if it breaks down, lol.
     
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  14. LeaN69

    LeaN69 Well-Known Member

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    Jeep just had to pay Tesla to include "pool" their cars in order to avoid European emission penalties.

    That being said Jeep could care less about emissions. They're doing it to be in compliance, and that just my observer opinion.
     
  15. OP
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    Rahneld

    Rahneld Banned

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    @Euro JEEP : I think PHEV, for many vehicle classes, is just a transition to fully electric that manufacturers are employing to meet CAFE standards.

    @cbrenthus

    "If they're so great, why does the government have to pay me to buy one?"

    There not so great compared to ICE...not yet at least, and they cost a lot more right now than ICE vehicles (apples of apples) because the economies of scale aren't there yet in broad scale electric rig production.

    So Uncle Sam incentivizes us to buy them with some $ back so more will be made, reducing average cost. At least that's the theory.

    I liked your other points.
     
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