2018 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Diesel Mule Spied with DEF Tank

Ikari Warrior

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I'm worried they may pull the plug on the diesel if they dont get this EPA thing straightened. The diesel option used to say late availability on their site if you tried to build a GC....not its not even listed as an option at all. Still says late availability for the Ram though.
I would guess (and hope) that FCA already invested too much $ into the V6 EcoDiesel to just kill it at this point. I mean it was already engineered and fitted into two big selling models. Hopefully they get the EPA satisfied soon so we can see a 2019 Wrangler with diesel engine. Killing me to not hear much news recently on this though.

But the headwinds for diesel in the US aren't great. Mercedes just recently said that going forward they're pulling all diesels from the U.S. market, like VW.





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The Great Grape Ape

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I was talking with the dealership the other day, and they are having issues with EcoDiesel volume, they can't get enough. This was an issue initially, and even back then the GC got short-changed to ensure there was enough for the Ram. The EcoDiesel is likely going to get the same treatment with the JL/JT.

I would say it's almost certain the JT gets it as it's table stakes for trucks. The GC and JL it's still more of a small volume niche that's nice, but not necessary for the category.

Likely the order of priority for FCA and the EcoDiesel is RAM > JT > ( GC/JL or JL/GC ) and until they significantly increase volume, they will likely keep that type of prioritization.

Of course a fair amount of the additional demand fr the RAMs is people worried it will get held up by the EPA (unlikely due to the new Dark Overlord) so people are rushing to get them before they are possibly gone. Will this situation persist into the 2019 model year is a big... dunno!
 
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SWinch

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I was talking with the dealership the other day, and they are having issues with EcoDiesel volume, they can't get enough. This was an issue initially, and even back then the GC got short-changed to ensure there was enough for the Ram. The EcoDiesel is likely going to get the same treatment with the JL/JT.

I would say it's almost certain the JT gets it as it's table stakes for trucks. The GC and JL it's still more of a small volume niche that's nice, but not necessary for the category.

Likely the order of priority for FCA and the EcoDiesel is RAM > JT > ( GC/JL or JL/GC ) and until they significantly increase volume, they will likely keep that type of prioritization.

Of course a fair amount of the additional demand fr the RAMs is people worried it will get held up by the EPA (unlikely due to the new Dark Overlord) so people are rushing to get them before they are possibly gone. Will this situation persist into the 2019 model year is a big... dunno!
So assuming the EcoDiesel gets cleared by the FCA to resume sale, you think there'll be a long term supply issue that might keep it out of the JL/JLU in favor of the JT? Hope that doesn't happen! I want a diesel but I don't want to get the JT just to get it since I don't need a pickup.
 

The Great Grape Ape

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So assuming the EcoDiesel gets cleared by the FCA to resume sale, you think there'll be a long term supply issue that might keep it out of the JL/JLU in favor of the JT? Hope that doesn't happen! I want a diesel but I don't want to get the JT just to get it since I don't need a pickup.
I don't know, but we have seen what happened with the GC in the past, and currently. Some theories...

The RAM has to meet less stringent regulations, so even if regulatory concerns were involved it would likely get the target/focus as it's less likely to get a recall/buy-back/etc. Now if the JT gets that same functional expemption then it might get them when others are more of a question mark.

To me, the best chance for the JL/JLU is that FCA have sufficient quantity early in the JL(U) lifecycle BEFORE the JT becomes available, because afterwards then the JT will get preference if there are supply constraints, until perhaps that JT market gets saturated enough, and then maybe they can refocus on the JL(U)s.

The most we can hope for (even though I don't want diesel) is that the supply situation is improved by the time it would be able to find a soot under the hood of a JL or JLU.
 

Shaddrach

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I just read this on Car and Driver,
"Additionally, we anticipate the new Wrangler will get a turbocharged four-cylinder engine. Expect the boosted four-pot to serve the role of the Wrangler’s fuel-economy champion until the diesel and hybrid powertrains arrive a couple of years later."

If the diesel is not going to show up until a "couple years" after the JL is released, that really puts a damper on my plans. I guess I'll be keeping my JK for a couple more years if what C&D says is accurate.
 

WaltA

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Hasn't Sergio mentioned that a US diesel is part of the JL's "five year plan"? That could mean that we will not see a diesel until, what, 2023?

And that's long enough, that plans can change by the time 2023 rolls around either by FCA's doing, or the EPA.
 

Dackel

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I just read this on Car and Driver,
"Additionally, we anticipate the new Wrangler will get a turbocharged four-cylinder engine. Expect the boosted four-pot to serve the role of the Wrangler’s fuel-economy champion until the diesel and hybrid powertrains arrive a couple of years later."

If the diesel is not going to show up until a "couple years" after the JL is released, that really puts a damper on my plans. I guess I'll be keeping my JK for a couple more years if what C&D says is accurate.
I wouldn't put much stock on that estimate for the diesel. Not even FCA will really know the timing on their diesel models until the EPA thing is resolved.
 

The Great Grape Ape

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Hasn't Sergio mentioned that a US diesel is part of the JL's "five year plan"? That could mean that we will not see a diesel until, what, 2023?

And that's long enough, that plans can change by the time 2023 rolls around either by FCA's doing, or the EPA.
Well it was supposed to arrive before 2022 (looks like 2020) according to the roadmap from the investors call business plan based on requirement needs. Of course that was before Europe's and the EPA's investigations.

However, according to that Business plan, the Wrangler is supposed to get a Mild 48V Hybrid before then (and it didn't even have the dotted line of uncertainty around it), supposedly then a full higher voltage Hybrid afterwards. 2018 was a commonly mentioned as an ETA for the Mild Hybrid.

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WaltA

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Well it was supposed to arrive before 2022 (looks like 2020) according to the roadmap from the investors call business plan based on requirement needs. Of course that was before Europe's and the EPA's investigations.
If this plan is from back before "diesel gate" started, then its a pretty old roadmap, no? And "diesel gate" is a pretty major disruption to any business plan that involves diesels.
 

The Great Grape Ape

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This was released for the investors call January of 2016 (see bottom right of slide), so after the original diesel-gate, but before the EPA announced their investigation into the EcoDiesel.
It was also before Europe started changing their opinion of diesel due to particulate polution, with proposed bans in many of the major European cities.

It's highly likely the original timeframe no longer applies for the JL/JLU.
However I still think the JT gets considered as a different beast simply due to the nature of the truck market.
 

TommyDuncan

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I was recently at a dealership and they told me the eco-diesel was on hold and may no longer be for sale in the US due to the recent EPA issues.
Last month I also found out the reason we have 2 new Cummins at work is because there was an indefinite timeline to fill the order for 2 eco-diesels that where long standing. Does anyone have any information on this?
 

JTman

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I was recently at a dealership and they told me the eco-diesel was on hold and may no longer be for sale in the US due to the recent EPA issues.
Yea FCA didn't even certify any ecodiesel Ram 1500 or Grand Cherokees in 2017. They're on hold indefinitely until the EPA diesel cheating allegations against FCA are resolved or settled.

Now that VW just settled their case with the US govt and can continue their diesel sales, hopefully next up is addressing the FCA diesel issue.
 

Billy

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Well, I'm out until they come up with a solution to better torque and MPG above 25 hwy.
 

WaltA

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Well, I'm out until they come up with a solution to better torque and MPG above 25 hwy.
I can say, it was an SUV/4WD with city mileage in the 30's, back when gas was flirting with $5/gal, that lured me away from Jeep. A decision that I would later regret.
 

Brogan

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I very much doubt that's a diesel considering the EPA refuses to certify any FCA diesels and there's no end in sight now that the EPA is preparing to file lawsuit FCA over excess diesel emissions. I was really hoping FCA would have been able to satisfy the EPA's inquiry already without this turning into an official lawsuit :(

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...s-diesel-emissions?cciid=email-autonews-blast

May 17, 2017

WASHINGTON
-- The Justice Department is preparing to sue Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV if talks fail to resolve differences over the automaker's alleged violations of U.S. clean-air rules with its diesel vehicles, according to two people briefed on the matter.

A lawsuit could be filed as soon as this week, said the people, who asked not to be identified discussing the confidential matter. Negotiations are still ongoing and the parties may reach an agreement to avoid prolonged litigation. A suit would mark an escalation of the U.S. government's months-long inquiry and could expose the automaker to significant penalties.

The suit being prepared alleges the company used illegal defeat devices, one of the people said. Such devices -- software in computerized systems -- improperly disable pollution controls to enhance performance. Volkswagen AG admitted in 2015 to using defeat devices that turned on emissions controls to pass tests but turned them off during driving.

Fiat Chrysler is adamant that its controls weren't designed to cheat emissions tests like Volkswagen's. Investigators have said Fiat Chrysler hasn't been able to fully explain the purpose of all the functions to their satisfaction.

"In the case of any litigation, FCA US will defend itself vigorously, particularly against any claims that the company deliberately installed defeat devices to cheat U.S. emissions tests," Fiat Chrysler said in a statement. "The company believes that any litigation would be counterproductive to ongoing discussions with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board."

Fiat Chrysler has been seeking approval for updated software for 2017 model year diesels that it then intends to install in 2014-16 vehicles cited by the EPA in a Jan. 12 violation notice.

Court hearing

The U.S. has been preparing a potential complaint ahead of an initial hearing for separate lawsuits, brought by owners of the diesel SUVs and pickups, on May 24 at the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California. The San Francisco court oversaw VW emissions litigation.

Volkswagen's defeat devices permitted its diesel cars to pass emissions tests even as they exceeded pollution standards on the road. Regulators stepped up testing in the wake of that scandal, leading to the discovery of Fiat Chrysler's alleged violations.

Spokespeople for the Justice Department and EPA declined to comment.

The EPA alleged in January that the automaker sold 104,000 Jeep Grand Cherokee SUVs and Ram 1500 pickups with diesel engines containing "auxiliary emissions control devices" that the company failed to disclose to the agency.

EPA's notice

In the notice of violation, the agency also said that one or more of the undisclosed emissions controls may be defeat devices and challenged the automaker to convince investigators otherwise.

Some of the controls "appear to cause the vehicle to perform differently when the vehicle is being tested than in normal operation and use," the EPA said in its notice. Test data showed that the vehicles produced high levels of nitrogen oxide pollution under certain conditions, the agency said in January.

The alleged violations carried potential penalties of up to $44,539 per vehicle, then-EPA enforcement chief Cynthia Giles said at the time. That translated to a penalty of up to $4.6 billion based on the number of vehicles involved.

Fiat Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne denied the allegations on a Jan. 12 conference call. "We have no defeat devices," he said.

Possible mistakes

Marchionne addressed the issue again last month. "We may have made mistakes" on diesel software disclosure, he said, though Fiat Chrysler "never tried to break any rule."

The EPA said in January that Fiat Chrysler's lack of disclosure by itself constituted a Clean Air Act violation, adding that it may find additional violations. Auxiliary emissions control devices are permitted under the Clean Air Act as long as they're disclosed and explained in detail within applications carmakers file with the EPA.

Fiat Chrysler and EPA officials have been in talks to resolve the issues since January, and those talks continue, one of the people said.

At the same time, the automaker has been working to obtain EPA certifications for its 2017 model year diesel Jeep Grand Cherokee and Ram 1500, which the agency has thus far refused to grant.

Volkswagen admitted to using defeat devices on about a half million vehicles to pass U.S. emissions tests. Its then-CEO Martin Winterkorn resigned and the company has committed to spending more than $24.5 billion to cover costs stemming from the scandal, including a $2.8 billion criminal penalty as part of a guilty plea agreement reached in January with the Justice Department.
 

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