2.0L turbo 4 cylinder Hurricane engine

[kidney]

Alfa is currently using GME T4 M while inside of Warangler will be GME T4 D. That's the first difference.
The other one is BSG inside of Wrangler. So it's a mild hybrid unlike current GME inside of Alfa. And if this is a 48V mild hybrid miracles could be done.

And don't expect turbo V6 in the future from FCA US.

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[Billy]

And don't expect turbo V6 in the future from FCA US.

Why?

 

[kidney]

Why?

http://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/an-inline-6-cylinder-engine.721/

 

[kidney]

There's very little to indicate something like the sport-tuned Alfas, but alot to hint that it will be nothing like that.

Current GME version for Alfa Romeo is not a sport tuned engine. We'll see what will 350 HP version bring. The one with 48V tech.

Back to Wrangler version of GME. It's a DOHC, not a MultAir as in Alfa. They can use scavenging to achieve max torque at very low rpm. Also it will have BSG so they can use it for e-boost.

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

Current GME version for Alfa Romeo is not a sport tuned engine. We'll see what will 350 HP version bring. The one with 48V tech.

That's not the engine tune or design, that's electric-assist, very different. Without a second electric power plant it's getting nowhere near there without even more exotic design/fabrication methods, which will likely compromise reliability further, especially in something like a Wrangler application.

Back to Wrangler version of GME. It's a DOHC, not a MultAir as in Alfa. They can use scavenging to achieve max torque at very low rpm. Also it will have BSG so they can use it for e-boost.

Scaving doesn't offer that much improvement, with low single digit % point improvement and slightly shift to the torque curve (~100RPM), not anything truly dramatic, especially compared to the jump in the PSU/PUG.
Add that the Alfas are twin turbos, and the Hurricane is a single twin scroll without variable geometry, it's still an entry level engine, not a performance engine.

A for the BSG it typically offers 10-15HP of e-assist, so nothing special, and in the case of the hurricane, is likely there to overcome significant lag of a stop/start turbo.

While we expect a 48V version (due in part to the roadmap from 2 uears ago) there are also 12V BSGs out there, so it could be that, but... I suspect that if FCA was able to get that rat's nest of a test Hurricane Wrangler organized, then they'd have room for a spare 48V battery in there, so it's still the likeliest candidate, but there's still a lot of unknown so it's not certain.

In the end the buggest indicator of Hurricane power is it's positioning; if it were clearly superior to the Pentastar in an Alfa / Volvo kind of way, it would be positioned and priced accordingly, not as the base engine.

 

[kidney]

Scaving doesn't offer that much improvement, with low single digit % point improvement and slightly shift to the torque curve (~100RPM), not anything truly dramatic, especially compared to the jump in the PSU/PUG.
Add that the Alfas are twin turbos, and the Hurricane is a single twin scroll without variable geometry, it's still an entry level engine, not a performance engine.

A for the BSG it typically offers 10-15HP of e-assist, so nothing special, and in the case of the hurricane, is likely there to overcome significant lag of a stop/start turbo.

While we expect a 48V version (due in part to the roadmap from 2 uears ago) there are also 12V BSGs out there, so it could be that, but... I suspect that if FCA was able to get that rat's nest of a test Hurricane Wrangler organized, then they'd have room for a spare 48V battery in there, so it's still the likeliest candidate, but there's still a lot of unknown so it's not certain.

In the end the buggest indicator of Hurricane power is it's positioning; if it were clearly superior to the Pentastar in an Alfa / Volvo kind of way, it would be positioned and priced accordingly, not as the base engine.

Scavenging helps. How much? On turbo DI engine a lot. Let's say that Fiat Group had 1750 cc engine with 200 HP and 320 Nm at 1400 rpm in 2009. With 2 liters it could be 230 HP and 365 Nm at 1400 rpm. And we are not taking into account almost a decade of development.

Alfa is using single twin scroll turbo on all of their current GME versions. And they are 200 and 280 HP.

12V BSG can be used with two batteries. Gains with single are to low. And with two batteries you save space if you opt for 48V system. We know that packaging is crucial for Wrangler.

IMO, GME and Pentastar will have same price in JL. Customers will be pushed towards GME because of CAFE.
I can imagine who will buy JL with GME. The same customer who will opt for newly available permanent AWD. Identical profile of customer will opt for FPT 2.2 liter diesel in Europe.

Interesting ftha or KL facelift GME will be positioned above 3.2 liter Pnetastar.

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

Scavenging helps. How much? On turbo DI engine a lot.

Not according to Bosch, the folks who make their bacon making turbos.
https://www.gtisoft.com/wp-content/uploads/publication/Bosch_Scavenging.pdf

And I'm not sure if you know how it works if you think it's a significant power boost versus a change of how/when the power is delivered, the increase in actual power is minor and even the change on early delivery is a small bump.

Also, like I mentioned Scaving returns less of a boost than EGR on the PSU/PUG, even by SAE's own numbers.

Let's say..

Let's not. Especially not on an example like that one.

Much easier when you can post an actual published/public example...
... like the current FCA implementstion of a 12V BSG on their Fiat 2.0 Turbo diesel.

IMO, GME and Pentastar will have same price in JL

Well, I'll stick with the current info with the Hurrican as the base, and Pentastar as a premium option, which is supported by others with the history and credibility in this area. The rest sounds like the same hype of the 300HP Hurricane rumours.

 

[kidney]

Not according to Bosch, the folks who make their bacon making turbos.
https://www.gtisoft.com/wp-content/uploads/publication/Bosch_Scavenging.pdf

Fpt Tesi Scavenging Definitiva:
https://www.slideshare.net/Hainz/fpt-tesi-scavenging-definitiva

Much easier when you can post an actual published/public example...
... like the current FCA implementstion of a 12V BSG on their Fiat 2.0 Turbo diesel.

There is no such Fiat diesel in production.

Well, I'll stick with the current info with the Hurrican as the base

I didn't say that GME T4 D is not a base engine for JL. I said that I beleive that Pentastar will be an option with no additional price.

 

[Lee H Greidanus]

That's not the engine tune or design, that's electric-assist, very different. Without a second electric power plant it's getting nowhere near there without even more exotic design/fabrication methods, which will likely compromise reliability further, especially in something like a Wrangler application.



Scaving doesn't offer that much improvement, with low single digit % point improvement and slightly shift to the torque curve (~100RPM), not anything truly dramatic, especially compared to the jump in the PSU/PUG.
Add that the Alfas are twin turbos, and the Hurricane is a single twin scroll without variable geometry, it's still an entry level engine, not a performance engine.

A for the BSG it typically offers 10-15HP of e-assist, so nothing special, and in the case of the hurricane, is likely there to overcome significant lag of a stop/start turbo.

While we expect a 48V version (due in part to the roadmap from 2 uears ago) there are also 12V BSGs out there, so it could be that, but... I suspect that if FCA was able to get that rat's nest of a test Hurricane Wrangler organized, then they'd have room for a spare 48V battery in there, so it's still the likeliest candidate, but there's still a lot of unknown so it's not certain.

In the end the buggest indicator of Hurricane power is it's positioning; if it were clearly superior to the Pentastar in an Alfa / Volvo kind of way, it would be positioned and priced accordingly, not as the base engine.

allot of the 48v systems have a traditional battery up front and the reminder in the trunk... Guess we will see what they have up their sleeve.

 

[YFD_322]

So which is the better motor for this JL penistar or the 2.0?

 

[XFinn]

So which is the better motor for this JL penistar or the 2.0?

Ah, the $64,000 question I (and I'm sure many others on the fence) will hope to have the answer to prior to placing my JLU order. The tried and true old reliable or the new (and exciting?) turbo 4 banger with improved mpg and tuner possibilities. My glass is half full. Sounds like a win-win!

 

[YFD_322]

I'm picking the 2.0

 

[kidney]

So which is the better motor for this JL penistar or the 2.0?

It depends on use. I can see 2.0 as the best choice for daily driver, of-course with new permanent AWD. And 3.0 V6 diesel for trails. But... IMO, Pentastar is here for those who don't want to pay for diesel.

In Europe most people will chose 2.2 liter diesel which will not be available in US.

 

[The Great Grape Ape]

Fpt Tesi Scavenging Definitiva:
https://www.slideshare.net/Hainz/fpt-tesi-scavenging-definitiva

Which doesn't even show the same engine's torque curve, and shows the 1.8Lt geting less total power but sooner than the 2.0L as one of their examples.
Even in the further slides, NO boost to TOTAL power, just sooner like I said, reducing turbo's notorious lag, but only slightly and not significantly when compared to other methods like variable geometry or electrically-assisted turbo.
So again, no boost to overal power, just a slight bump to timing.

Also, not only does it not support your claim, we can't even dissect it further because you couldn't find an English one. Really? Even the Bosch one was English instead of German so others could read it.

If that's all you have and it shows no boost in power and still has turbo lag and isn't even in English for discussion, then I know how strong your position is.

There is no such Fiat diesel in production.

No longer in production, as it's now replacade, but it is one of their BSG darlings in the Giulietta in 2010+ along with other options, which is only recently replaced by the Giulia with the new TinyTurbo4 petrol engine.

You were the one using a 2009 Fiat theoretical example, so I used an actual one that was directly relevant to the lineage of the engine/vehicle/application we're talking about.

So their previous system had exactly that, a 12V setup, in 4 different engine options incouding the one stated. So until it shows up, I wouldn't be so sure it's just like everything else, just yet.
And again, tiny boost, not huge. 10-15 HP at best if it's a 48V system, and much less if it's a 12V like this one below.

I didn't say that GME T4 D is not a base engine for JL. I said that I beleive that Pentastar will be an option with no additional price.

Again I'll take the word of those with a proven track record on this, who state otherwise.

 

[kidney]

Which doesn't even show the same engine's torque curve, and shows the 1.8Lt geting less total power but sooner than the 2.0L as one of their examples.
Even in the further slides, NO boost to TOTAL power, just sooner like I said, reducing turbo's notorious lag, but only slightly and not significantly when compared to other methods like variable geometry or electrically-assisted turbo.
So again, no boost to overal power, just a slight bump to timing.

Also, not only does it not support your claim, we can't even dissect it further because you couldn't find an English one. Really? Even the Bosch one was English instead of German so others could read it.

If that's all you have and it shows no boost in power and still has turbo lag and isn't even in English for discussion, then I know how strong your position is.

Don't be nationalist. Fiat is Italian company and have cooperation with Italian universities. Of-course that presentation will be in Italian.

You can see in presentation that R&D for 1.8 JTS Turbo (later known as 1750 TBi) was done in Arese(part of Milano) which was Alfa's main R&D center (closed in 2009). Also they cooperated with Politecnico di Milano which can be seen in Thesis presented in my earlier post.

You can see gains vs. 1.8 turbo without scavenging. More than 30% torque gain at 2000 rpm.

For the last 2 years Enzo Ceroni works for FCA in Torino in Powertrain strategy department.

No longer in production, as it's now replacade, but it is one of their BSG darlings in the Giulietta in 2010+ along with other options, which is only recently replaced by the Giulia with the new TinyTurbo4 petrol engine.

So their previous system had exactly that, a 12V setup, in 4 different engine options incouding the one stated. So until it shows up, I wouldn't be so sure it's just like everything else, just yet.
And again, tiny boost, not huge. 10-15 HP at best if it's a 48V system, and much less if it's a 12V like this one below.

And here is a full document where different Start/Stop systems are explained:
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/FEV_LDV EU Technology Cost Analysis_StartStop Overview.pdf

Obviusly and you can find it in document. System in Giulietta is not BSG. It does not provide a boost. It's not a mild hybrid. Just a start/stop. ISG is Intelligent Stop & Go. And it's a ESS (Enhanced Start Stop).

If I'm not wrong mild hybrids by US law are not hybrids unlike in EU. So free parking, toll, is free for mild hybrids in most parts of EU.

If you want to take a look at mild hybrid systems and possible FCA usage in India:
http://www.ijrter.com/papers/volume...ter-generator-bsg-for-2-0-l-diesel-engine.pdf

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