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INCRHULK

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I agree with some of that, but if you take the entire production and manufacturing process of an EV vs ICE, to end of life, the ICE will have less environmental impact as long as the juice to power the EV is most likely coming from coal down the road. Its like how they use the term "Biomass Generators", sound all nice and friendly, in reality its deforestation and burning trees, which when still standing extract CO2 from the atmosphere for photosynthesis.
This is incorrect. The longer you own a BEV or PHEV, the less impact it has on the environment, no matter what the source of electrical generation is. Focusing solely on carbon emissions, every year you own and operate an ICE, you're contributing to a carbon footprint that grows. Every year you own a BEV, you're contributing to a decreased carbon footprint. If you can charge it via renewables/non-fossil fuel generation (Solar, hydro, wind, nuclear) the carbon footprint shrinks, eventually becoming negative. PHEVS aren't nearly as good as a BEV for this, but the longer you use the battery feature, the less impact it has on carbon emissions.
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Jocko

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I think Jeep is really trying to preserve solid axles for the wrangler. Obviously they add weight and drivetrain loss. But if they produce an independent suspension wrangler there will not be anything really to differentiate from other suvs. It will feel like everything else.
I'm def in the solid axle camp for the Wrangler as is. But I think the whole solid vs. independent thing goes out the window when you have the drivetrain essentially directly in each hub. For example there would be no CV joints. I'm by no means an expert, but I get the sense there is very much the potential for a "have our cake and eat it too" situation. At least I hope so!
 

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Life will always be full of paradoxes and ironies. Diesel-generator being used to recharge an electric vehicle would be one of them.
The advantage to this is fossil fuel powered motors can run way way more efficiently when they are not being asked to provide a powerband. When it’s built to chug along at one speed, the entire motor can just be designed around max efficiency at that rpm.

If I were a oil company right now, I’d be dumping billions of R&D into camless engines then lobby for small camless generators inside EV’s.

EV’s work because of ridiculous rolling efficiency. While a 20hp micro generator might not do a damn thing for range in a 4xe or EV hummer, you throw it in a tesla model 3 and start charging as soon as you leave your driveway, your 300 mile range is now 600 mile range, which you might be able to do on 6 gallons of fuel giving you 100mpg + the cost of charging.

Personally I think hybrids have a lot of untapped potential and I wish governments around the world thought about this more before they set a deadline to ban fossil fuels.
 

Bzinsky

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I agree with some of that, but if you take the entire production and manufacturing process of an EV vs ICE, to end of life, the ICE will have less environmental impact as long as the juice to power the EV is most likely coming from coal down the road. Its like how they use the term "Biomass Generators", sound all nice and friendly, in reality its deforestation and burning trees, which when still standing extract CO2 from the atmosphere for photosynthesis.
That is not true when you account for the fact that not all the energy comes from fossil fuels.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3
 

Cutterone

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This is incorrect. The longer you own a BEV or PHEV, the less impact it has on the environment, no matter what the source of electrical generation is. Focusing solely on carbon emissions, every year you own and operate an ICE, you're contributing to a carbon footprint that grows. Every year you own a BEV, you're contributing to a decreased carbon footprint. If you can charge it via renewables/non-fossil fuel generation (Solar, hydro, wind, nuclear) the carbon footprint shrinks, eventually becoming negative. PHEVS aren't nearly as good as a BEV for this, but the longer you use the battery feature, the less impact it has on carbon emissions.
Ok, how long do you infer that battery is going to last? 100,000 miles? They start to degenerate immediately, and will faster depending on ambient temperature. What is the environmental impact of a car that needs at least a second replacement battery to make it to 150,000 miles or more, which just about any ICE can do these days with regular maintenance, not to mention the cost of said replacement battery, again just my 3 cents...
 
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Oncorhynchus

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Even if you don’t plan to purchase an EV anytime soon, the adoption of EVs will help hold the price of gasoline lower. More EVs = less gasoline demand = more supply/lower gas prices. The Recon is an interesting concept but I doubt it will have more than a 100kw battery which realistically won’t go more than 180 miles on the highway….and FAR less when off-roading. That said, as battery technology evolves the Recon could eventually become a good Bronco alternative…
In the near term the reduced demand for gasoline will lower fuel prices when we fill up our vehicles. However, prices will eventually rise again when the economies of scale of the well-to-pump petroleum supply chain start shrinking when BEVs as percentage of total vehicles on the road becomes significant.

Who knows when that will happen - nobody. Choose the power train of your next major vehicle purchase wisely.
 

Cutterone

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And solar, wind, hydro, nuclear all sound great. What percentage to they make up of our already taxed electrical grid? 10% if I'm being generous? Ever look into the environmental impact of producing and disposing of just one giant windmill, which is made with tons of fossil fuels as is...The tech may be ready one day and I hope they figure it all out for our kids sake...
 

Oncorhynchus

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Ok, how long do you infer that battery is going to last? 100,000 miles? They start to degenerate immediately, and will faster depending on ambient temperature. What is the environmental impact of a car that needs at least a second replacement battery to make it to 150,000 miles or more, which just about any ICE can do these days with regular maintenance, not to mention the cost of said replacement battery, again just my 3 cents...
Not a statistically significant sample in this data set but one Tesla with 400,000 miles only suffered 10% battery degradation:

https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/amp/
 

Cutterone

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Not a statistically significant sample in this data set but one Tesla with 400,000 miles only suffered 10% battery degradation:

https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/amp/
Wow impressive, one of my main concern is also degradation of range due to where you live. I'm in NH, so I see temps from -10 to 100, remember the heat in winter is a huge draw off the battery, not reused heat off the engine...just something to keep in mind. I'm sure the AC draw is significant as well in hot climates...anyone with knowledge of these parameters chime in I'd like some real world knowledge on the subject...
 

Jocko

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1 motor > 4 motors.

Imagine your in a situation that only one tire has traction, something that likely happens quite often when doing rock crawling.

Lets pretend you have a 800hp gas engine jeep vs a 800hp quad motor EV jeep, 200hp per tire. Well the gas vehicle can send 800hp to one single tire (well more like 650hp with drivetrain losses) if only one tire has traction. The quad motor can only send 200hp to one tire.

Now when you account for the fact that a single powerplant will likely have a trans and transfer case, what really matters is the torque that can be sent to an individual tire. When you add up the trans, transfer case, and diffs, A rubicon in low range is 77.34:1 torque multiplication. So your 800ft lbs of torque is now 61,872 ft lbs sent to the rear axle (incase you were wondering why you have to beef up axles, that’s it lol). Realistically more like 30-40k ft lbs when you add up the insane drivetrain losses of 77.41:1 torque multiplication. But thats still 30-40k ft lbs of torque that your 800hp jeep can send to one single tire should the situation call for it. Meanwhile your quad motor EV, is limited to the torque of that one motor.

Even if we are talking about theoretical limitations of drivetrain systems in the distant future, one motor trumps quad motor for everything.
Single motor = each tire can receive 0-100% of total vehicle power
Quad motor = each tire can receive 0-25%
of total vehicle power (realistically quad motor could send more than 25% to one tire as the hp limitation with EV is usually total current to and from the battery, which means you could just temporarily send more current to that one or two tires, but no way does that get you anywhere close to a single motor)

disclaimer: I love EV’s, but I believe the old school axles and drivetrains will continue to dominate rock crawling for a long time to come.

Jeep is kinda screwed, because that is the exact opposite of what you want for an EV. Even if battery tech explodes and we triple the battery density, what really matters is how it compares to other vehicles. It’s still will cost more to buy and cost more to drive than other vehicles.
Oh that's actually a really good point about the torque multiplication. Maybe there would be some way to design a low gear that is compact enough to fit in each hub? Yes that would still suffer from the 25% limitation, but if it could provide enough torque, hopefully it would allow for all of the craziness of no axles without any real world hit to off road capability? A guy can dream. Heh
 

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Oncorhynchus

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The advantage to this is fossil fuel powered motors can run way way more efficiently when they are not being asked to provide a powerband. When it’s built to chug along at one speed, the entire motor can just be designed around max efficiency at that rpm.

If I were a oil company right now, I’d be dumping billions of R&D into camless engines then lobby for small camless generators inside EV’s.

EV’s work because of ridiculous rolling efficiency. While a 20hp micro generator might not do a damn thing for range in a 4xe or EV hummer, you throw it in a tesla model 3 and start charging as soon as you leave your driveway, your 300 mile range is now 600 mile range, which you might be able to do on 6 gallons of fuel giving you 100mpg + the cost of charging.

Personally I think hybrids have a lot of untapped potential and I wish governments around the world thought about this more before they set a deadline to ban fossil fuels.
That might be the way Toyota ultimately goes. The fossil-fuel portion of the powertrain may take the role of the electric motor in early generation hybrids.
 

kah.mun.rah

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What's up with the recycled name? Is it that difficult to come up with something new?
By definition Recon has always been short for Reconditioned, or taking a used car and cleaning it up to be re-sold.

JK Recon
Jeep Wrangler JL ⚡️ 2024 Jeep Recon EV Revealed! (Off-Road Capable BEV) *** ⚠️ WARNING: NO POLITICS *** 1662736465770


JL Recon
Jeep Wrangler JL ⚡️ 2024 Jeep Recon EV Revealed! (Off-Road Capable BEV) *** ⚠️ WARNING: NO POLITICS *** 1662736504900


JL Xtreme Recon
Jeep Wrangler JL ⚡️ 2024 Jeep Recon EV Revealed! (Off-Road Capable BEV) *** ⚠️ WARNING: NO POLITICS *** 1662736625093


Recon EV
Jeep Wrangler JL ⚡️ 2024 Jeep Recon EV Revealed! (Off-Road Capable BEV) *** ⚠️ WARNING: NO POLITICS *** 1662736736929
 

Jank4AU

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It looks like a cross between a Bronco and a Honda Element.
That's exactly what I thought! Like they made the boxy Honda Element even more boxy and just fixed the grill.

Jeep Wrangler JL ⚡️ 2024 Jeep Recon EV Revealed! (Off-Road Capable BEV) *** ⚠️ WARNING: NO POLITICS *** 1662737485692

Jeep Wrangler JL ⚡️ 2024 Jeep Recon EV Revealed! (Off-Road Capable BEV) *** ⚠️ WARNING: NO POLITICS *** 1662737602890
 

Oncorhynchus

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Agree, but when for the foreseeable future our electrical grid is going to continue to be fed by fossil fuels, EV's are not saving anything, and if you look into the environmental impact of mining and production for all these EV's, not to forget the end of life issues with millions of tons of used battery cells, they are worse than ICE, at least how I see it anyway, which is worth about 3 cents by my calculation...
Yes, end-of-life is a huge issue in terms of environmental impact.

There is a business opportunity somewhere in there. Most EV battery companies seem to be focused on energy efficiency, then longevity, with recycling being a distant third.

I think a battery company with the strategy of being a fast follower rather than first innovator on the energy density front but developing a very efficient end-of-life & materials recovery process could offer batteries to OEMs that translate to lower MSRP for the customer, thus easing the financial barrier to entry for middle-class buyers, while building a steady recurring revenue stream for mid-vehicle-life replacement batteries sold directly to consumer every 5 years.
 

Oncorhynchus

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What's up with the recycled name? Is it that difficult to come up with something new?
By definition Recon has always been short for Reconditioned, or taking a used car and cleaning it up to be re-sold.

JK Recon
Jeep Wrangler JL ⚡️ 2024 Jeep Recon EV Revealed! (Off-Road Capable BEV) *** ⚠️ WARNING: NO POLITICS *** 1662737602890


JL Recon
Jeep Wrangler JL ⚡️ 2024 Jeep Recon EV Revealed! (Off-Road Capable BEV) *** ⚠️ WARNING: NO POLITICS *** 1662737602890


JL Xtreme Recon
Jeep Wrangler JL ⚡️ 2024 Jeep Recon EV Revealed! (Off-Road Capable BEV) *** ⚠️ WARNING: NO POLITICS *** 1662737602890


Recon EV
Jeep Wrangler JL ⚡️ 2024 Jeep Recon EV Revealed! (Off-Road Capable BEV) *** ⚠️ WARNING: NO POLITICS *** 1662737602890
“Recon” makes for great retcons. Hello Urban Dictionary.
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