“You'll Almost Have to Buy an Electric Vehicle if Climate Bill Passes”

[dcmdon]

I appreciate the “let the market decide” bootstrap-capitalist approach, but this isn’t a singular product we’re discussing. It’s an entire infrastructure and economies of scale.

I don’t have time, nor am I qualified frankly, to get into a whole economics lesson on a wrangler forum, but I assure you it’s more complex thanmarket forces acting upon a singular product, as folks might like to make it out to be.

It is absolutely market forces acting on a singular product. Electricity.
If the power distribution companies see a market for more power, they will build out the infrastructure on their own dime. No Government intervention.

The invisible hand is a beautiful thing, and Adam Smith was a smart guy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand

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[J0E]

Got solar on the roof and the power is out - charge it up.

It doesnt work that way, at least none that I've installed legally. When the power is out the solar is down too.

How so? If the grid is down your disconnected and your solar panels and powerwall continue to work.

 

[Av8Chuck]

I appreciate the “let the market decide” bootstrap-capitalist approach, but this isn’t a singular product we’re discussing. It’s an entire infrastructure and economies of scale.

It does little good to sell more EVs without the infrastructure required to support them; all of the charging stations, the energy available to charge them, the batteries and all the materials and manufacturing capacity necessary to distribute them. It also takes more than the technology, it also takes the political will which clearly the world is divided on.

I don’t have time, nor am I qualified frankly, to get into a whole economics lesson on a wrangler forum, but I assure you it’s more complex thanmarket forces acting upon a singular product, as folks might like to make it out to be.

Actually when the product is a discontinuous innovation, like HD television - none of the SD equipment, monitors, broadcast equipment, camera's, set top boxes, etc., worked with HD so it all had to be replaced - it is the market forces acting on a single product category. EVs cannot supplant ICE's until enough of the infrastructure for EVs is in place. As long as the strategy remains one versus the other it will never happen. We need more of an all of the above strategy.

 

[Naylia]

How so? If the grid is down your disconnected and your solar panels and powerwall continue to work.

The original poster he responded to didn't mention a battery. Batteries are the key to getting benefit from your solar panels when the grid is down.

 

[J0E]

The original poster he responded to didn't mention a battery. Batteries are the key to getting benefit from your solar panels when the grid is down.

You don't need batteries to get power from your panels when the grid is down. I've never charged my EV off my powerwall batteries.

House batteries are beneficial obviously when the grid is down, but you don't need them. There's a lot of folks planning on using the F-150 lightning as their house battery. A fuel cell running off unicorn poop might be a better alternative.

 

[Naylia]

You don't need batteries to get power from your panels when the grid is down. I've never charged my EV off my powerwall batteries.

House batteries are beneficial obviously when the grid is down, but you don't need them. There's a lot of folks planning on using the F-150 lightning as their house battery.

Your Powerwall has a built in disconnect that allows the entire system to function when the grid is down. A standard solar install with no battery will not have this. You can use automatic transfer switches by themselves, but many jurisdictions don't allow their install without a battery.

 

[J0E]

Your Powerwall has a built in disconnect that allows the entire system to function when the grid is down. A standard solar install with no battery will not have this. You can use automatic transfer switches by themselves, but many jurisdictions don't allow their install without a battery.

Manal transfer switches for generators have been around for 50 years. Those relic rules will soon be gone. Seattle made me move my first satellite dish. A month later the feds rules local jurisdictions couldn't regulate that.

 

[Naylia]

Manual transfer switches for generators have been around for 50 years. Those relic rules will soon be gone. Seattle made me move my first satellite dish. A month later the feds rules local jurisdictions couldn't regulate that.

I hope so, but I have no expectation that the government is going to make it easier for me to disconnect from the power company.

 

[J0E]

It is absolutely market forces acting on a singular product. Electricity.
If the power distribution companies see a market for more power, they will build out the infrastructure on their own dime. No Government intervention.

The invisible hand is a beautiful thing, and Adam Smith was a smart guy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand

So true. One thing all the economists agree on (liberal and conservative), a carbon tax is the best way for the market to develop optimal technologies. But a carbon tax is not politically viable, so the inefficient carrot and stick approach is used. ESS probably has a negative carbon footprint.

 

[J0E]

Now, BEVs are only good as a2nd or 3rd vehicle for running around town.

Another clearly false statement by the no experience with EV group. My first EV I bought in 1996 had depleted 6 V golf cart batteries. With new batteries it had a 60 mile range. I replaced them with cheaper 12 pseudo deep cycle batteries, 30 mile range, and much faster and lighter. I did most of my commuting with that. I could easily make it to work and back, but I ended up doing most of the charging at work.

 

[TX MOAB]

I can’t wait, EV’s are better in every way except not being able to dump liquid energy into it in minutes.

Vehicle souls were already destroyed with torque management, electric steering, electric throttle, canbus, and an automatic trans in everything. If I wanted a car with a soul and I’d buy something older.

Plus off roading with doors off in EV mode is the greatest thing ever.

You’ll notice one difference when you trade or sell your EV back in 4 years, after the technology changes at a rapid pace given how new the technology is.

 

[OSCAR II]

How so? If the grid is down your disconnected and your solar panels and powerwall continue to work.

Most solar systems in use are grid tie, and most systems are not tesla powerwall or have a battery back up.

The powerwall has a limited capacity, so dont expect to run things as normal. Pick and choose what is essential to power.

If you want an off grid system with battery bank expect to double the cost +. Then there is battery maintenance.

Most systems you see on rooftops the inverter needs to see incoming power from the utility to function. Yes the panels are producing power but its not getting past the inverter.

 

[Opus]

Jeep seems to be moving forward with the EVs whether some of you want it or not...

https://www.teslarati.com/jeep-magneto-wrangler-ev-prototype-unveiling/

 

[OSCAR II]

Manal transfer switches for generators have been around for 50 years. Those relic rules will soon be gone.

I doubt that, it has to do with safety. Not just for us working the lines but for first responders trying to get people help.

We can open cut outs, air brakes, switches that cut off power from the utility allowing access to the area. Now if you have a solar house back feeding the line, we have no control over that. And its not just 240v on the street, there are transformers along the line so you'll easily have 13kv on the street too. Good luck getting first responders working around that.

 

[Bzinsky]

You’ll notice one difference when you trade or sell your EV back in 4 years, after the technology changes at a rapid pace given how new the technology is.

funny you say that, because I almost bought a model 3 performance in 2018 for $55k.

do you know what they go for 4 years old and 50k miles….? About $55k

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